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Fox Reflex 4 - 8in.

Kamasan B775 #8

1 fake pop-up corn & 1 real maize

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Edited by Big Buffalo

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360 swivel rig (pop-up rig)

post-740-1182827482.jpg

post-740-1182827498.jpg

Edited by Big Buffalo

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Guest German_Carp

My Rig:

simple but effective

edit: FOX Serie 2XS in Size 1, Sufix Synergy 20lb and a Handmade Boilie 30mm

post-1617-1160208223_thumb.jpg

Edited by German_Carp

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Something I found in a mag...

My vershun....

20 lb. P.P.

number 7 gizmo

long shank hook

drop down rig .. small split shot painted to look like a hemp seed

post-987-1160249075_thumb.jpg

post-987-1160249092_thumb.jpg

Edited by elcarpiomagnifico

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Guest JonM

Reverse combi-rig.

This is the rig which I've had most success on the past couple of seasons:

ReverseCombi001.jpg

Comprises:

Size 4-10 long shank Gamakatsu G-Point.

6lb Samson hair braid.

GLT black shrink tubing-line aligned.

1-3 " 15lb ESP bristle filament.

15lb Kryston Mantis - stripped.

Fox quick change clip.

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Jonathan,

Your linealigner seems to extend beyond the hookpoint. In my opinion, this would do exactly the oposite of what you want to accomplish with a line-aligner: make the hookpoint penetrate more easily. If the linealigner is that long, it sort of blocks the hookpoint. What's your take on this?

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Guest JonM

The fact that it's line-aligned is only relevant to the bristle, as it is nearly impossible to tie it so that it lies straight. Personally, I do not subscribe to the hypothesis that a rig 'turns' as is generally accepted, and gave up buying into our interpretations of the mechanics involved a long time ago. A carps ability to sort potential food items, alongside debris, is little short of amazing. Taking in food items, whilst it ejects items which it considers are not. If you watch a rig disturbed by feeding fish, it becomes very apparent that we are dealing with a contradiction when it comes to rig mechanics. Imagine a variable speed vacuum cleaner, which can choose what it wishes to take up, whilst simultaineously ejecting the lost earing, or the silk tie, left lying on the floor.

What happens when a food item is attached to an item which is considered debris? I imagine the fish will be doing it's utmost to retain the food item, whilst ejecting the other-our rig/ hook. The concept of a rig turning relies on the fish attempting to eject the food item, and that the rig/ hook is somehow, invisible- unaccounted for by the carp. This is arguably the last thing it intends, after having just accepted the food item.

The way I see it, is that there are a few things we can do to encourage a hook up, based on two potentials. An initial prick of the lip (with a sticky-sharp hook) as the bait is mouthed, or by making our rigs more difficult to eject once a bait is taken farther into the mouth, and with the latter, developing the time for this to take effect. For me the key is incorporating the potential for these, whilst offering as little resistance to the hookbait as possible.

For the past five years or so, I have sought greater challenge in my angling by seeking out lesser caught specimens. I do a few things which may account for the fact that I don't catch as many fish as some of my carp fishing buddies, though I catch a higher proportion of larger, and rarely caught fish, whilst suffering way fewer hookpulls. I put this down to the use of, longer hooklinks, slack lines/ running rigs, an alternative outlook in rig appreciation, and fishing off the baited area. Offering the least resistance possible, with the most fluidity, allows more time for the rig to take effect.

Fishing a week at a venue with my regular carping buddies early last spring, I managed 5 of the 6 thirties landed, two of which were unknown to the lake owner. During the week I fished only three days, preferring to participate in other activities during the stay-the others fished right through 24-7. By day three I had managed some nice fish, everyone else had become quite dejected with their results. To the point where they began asking to fish in my swim, whilst I was off sightseeing, etc. As we got further into the week, markers crept ever closer to my own, to the point where I moved away from the area. Overall the guy's lost around 40% of their fish to hookpulls, whilst I lost one. They landed around 20% more fish than I did, yet most were in the low 20's, and this pattern has enmerged over and again at different venues.

The rig has been evolved by fishing comparisons, side-by-side, over a number of seasons, and notwithstanding there are many more pieces to the puzzle, I am confident that it offers well above average hooking potential, based on these principals.

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Ok, here's my thought on it. I usually fish unexplored waters. So basically every encounter a carp has with my rig is its first experience with it. I think it works along the following lines:

1. Fish arrive to the baiting area. They’ll start sucking and blowing as part of a natural process. Not all boilies get blown out. Sometimes the fish just picks up a piece of bait, swims on to the next boilie and picks that one up as well.

2. Sometimes the rig gets blown out. I’m pretty sure that there’s not one truly effective rig do prevent this from happening. Nor do I see it as a problem. Eventually the following will happen:

3. A carp will pick up my boilie, swim away with it, hence tightening the leader.

4. The line-aligner in my case does not extend beyond the hook point; I usually fish with a fairly traditional line-aligner, leading the line to the inside of the hook, but the line-aligner itself is fairly straight (at most slightly bent inwards).

5. If anything, the line-aligner might help slightly to direct the point of the hook to the lower lip or corner of the mouth, where most of my hookups actually take place. Most of the times it’s in the lower corner.

I have a nearly 0 percentage of hookpulls.

Now, in my theory, a long sharply bent line-aligner that extends beyond the hook point might actually block off this hook point, and hence be counter-productive. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Edited by Mario Kok

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Ok, here's my thought on it. I usually fish unexplored waters. So basically every encounter a carp has with my rig is its first experience with it. I think it works along the following lines:

1. Fish arrive to the baiting area. They’ll start sucking and blowing as part of a natural process. Not all boilies get blown out. Sometimes the fish just picks up a piece of bait, swims on to the next boilie and picks that one up as well.

2. Sometimes the rig gets blown out. I’m pretty sure that there’s not one truly effective rig do prevent this from happening. Nor do I see it as a problem. Eventually the following will happen:

3. A carp will pick up my boilie, swim away with it, hence tightening the leader.

4. The line-aligner in my case does not extend beyond the hook point; I usually fish with a fairly traditional line-aligner, leading the line to the inside of the hook, but the line-aligner itself is fairly straight (at most slightly bent inwards).

5. If anything, the line-aligner might help slightly to direct the point of the hook to the lower lip or corner of the mouth, where most of my hookups actually take place. Most of the times it’s in the lower corner.

I have a nearly 0 percentage of hookpulls.

Now, in my theory, a long sharply bent line-aligner that extends beyond the hook point might actually block off this hook point, and hence be counter-productive. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I play around with rigs a lot. I originally felt as you did about the length of the line aligner. once i saw the withy pool rig i strted to think about it more. i should say that i find lots of gear on a rig counter productive and i usually prefer a plain hair rig on braid or stipper braid. anyway, when looking at jonathans rig, you need to imagine that the bristle filament bends. when the rig pulls straight, i am sure that the aligner changes shape, straghtening a little bit also. even if it does not straighten, if the hook is dragged across the fish's lip, there is still a moment when the point makes contact. check out my illustration:

Jonathan. i never knew such a thing existed as a reverse combi but i have been toying with the same idea. i use 30 lb bristle and a crimper to make these, and just add 8" of braid:

post-500-1160505525_thumb.jpg

post-500-1160505656_thumb.jpg

Edited by louis

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I also have had a difficult time swallowing a lot of the ideas surrounding how a rig acts in the fish's mouth. but the thing i have the most trouble with is the blowback theory. I think hair rigs work because of optimum placement of the hook point in relation to the bait when the whole rig is STRAIGHT. that is why i started making the rigs pictured in my previous post. the 30 lb bristle makes a stiff hair that the bait barely moves on. i have had nothing but success with it and obviously NO tangles in the bait.

In the last few weeks, i have even left the braid behind and i just make rigs like these but with a straight peice of 15 lb flourocarbon, which is super stiff. no crimp, no hinge and no problems. I watched fish take the bait and be hooked immediately 3 times in a row sunday. i make a fairly big loop at the swivel and that provides all the extra movement needed. I have used only braided hook links in the last few years and now i am changing my mind on what i like best.

post-500-1160505964_thumb.jpg

Edited by louis

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Louis,

you're assuming the hookpoint will always be faced downwards when a carp swims away with the bait. I'm assuming that first the line-aligner will be inside the carps' mouth and then be pulled out by the carp moving away. I'm not so sure that the hookpoint will always end up like in you're drawing. The long line aligner might actually force the hook to flip over and be pulled out sideways, away from the lower lip...or am I talking nonsense here? :D

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Louis,

you're assuming the hookpoint will always be faced downwards when a carp swims away with the bait. I'm assuming that first the line-aligner will be inside the carps' mouth and then be pulled out by the carp moving away. I'm not so sure that the hookpoint will always end up like in you're drawing. The long line aligner might actually force the hook to flip over and be pulled out sideways, away from the lower lip...or am I talking nonsense here? :D

you are making sense, but i still think it would work even if it came out of the side of the fish's mouth. carp's mouths are almost round, so it should hook in a similar way no matter how it exits. its closely related to the concept of the circle hook and withy pool rig.

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Let's do a little handtest (No Scott, not that kind of hand test) and see what happens. Be back in the afternoon..

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Ok, I just tied a rig with an oversized line-aligner on a more or less 30 degree inward angle, extending beyond the hook point. Personally I never fished a line-aligner that long, so the following comments are purely based on a "dry-test".

I don't find a major difference in the effect of the hook point actually pricking some meat. As a matter of fact, with, without or with a long line-aligner on a dry test I don't see too much difference. Maybe a slight advantage for rigs with line-aligners (long and short) over a rig without any (line coming out on inside of the hook-eye).

However, for a rig with a long line-aligner to prick itself and dig in, it is absolutely necessary to completely straighten the line-aligner which does lead to a certain amount of pressure, before the hook really sinks in. A short line-aligner allows the weight of the lead to be transferred straight on to the hookpoint. With a long line-aligner, the entire shrinktube needs to be stretched and straightened first before the hook penetrates.

Now, in virgin waters, it probably really does not matter that much. In very heavily fished waters it might make a difference, albeit here we are indeed looking at success stories of Banana-rigs. So at the end of the day, what’s true? Probably that one rig that gives you the most confidence… And for me that happens to be a traditional “straight” line aligner. Until I change my mind… :D

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Guest JonM
Ok, I just tied a rig with an oversized line-aligner on a more or less 30 degree inward angle, extending beyond the hook point. Personally I never fished a line-aligner that long, so the following comments are purely based on a "dry-test".

I don't find a major difference in the effect of the hook point actually pricking some meat. As a matter of fact, with, without or with a long line-aligner on a dry test I don't see too much difference. Maybe a slight advantage for rigs with line-aligners (long and short) over a rig without any (line coming out on inside of the hook-eye).

However, for a rig with a long line-aligner to prick itself and dig in, it is absolutely necessary to completely straighten the line-aligner which does lead to a certain amount of pressure, before the hook really sinks in. A short line-aligner allows the weight of the lead to be transferred straight on to the hookpoint. With a long line-aligner, the entire shrinktube needs to be stretched and straightened first before the hook penetrates.

Now, in virgin waters, it probably really does not matter that much. In very heavily fished waters it might make a difference, albeit here we are indeed looking at success stories of Banana-rigs. So at the end of the day, what's true? Probably that one rig that gives you the most confidence… And for me that happens to be a traditional "straight" line aligner. Until I change my mind… :D

Mario

You have entirely the wrong end of the stick fella. The whole idea of the arrangement is that the bait, hook, and bristle, are taken fully into the mouth and stay there for as long as possible. There is no semi-fixed lead involved to transfer any pressure to the hook point, because as I have said-I use running leads and slack lines. By 'removing' the lead from the equation-there is nothing to pivot against, to aid in dislodging the rig. As a slack line does not have to stretch to move, when the fish moves off you get full indication. When a run is signalled, lifting into the take is what 'straightens' the bristle-via the downward pull of the 4oz+ running lead sat at bottom. Generally, it is the latter, or the semi-fixed lead dangling below the jawline, that pulls every rig towards the lower part of the mouth, and performs any straightening. :D:D

What are banana-rigs?

Jon

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Jon,

I applied the idea of the long line-aligner to my specific situation, which is using fixed leads. I wasn't analyzing your method of fishing. So as far as I'm concerned I just might be holding the stick at the right end :D

But no worries, we can talk a bit about your setup as well again. I just want to know what you see as the advantage of the long line-aligner versus the short standard one. The only reason I can see is to create a firm but very late prick, at the lowerlip in order to avoid possibly light-hooking the carp in an other area of the mouth, which would be more likely perhaps with a regular line-aligner. I'm not saying it does not work. I just want to hear what you think is the advantage.

Banana rig is the same as the withy pool rig.

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Guest JonM

:D Ok...

Jonathan,

In my opinion, this would do exactly the oposite of what you want to accomplish with a line-aligner: make the hookpoint penetrate more easily.

Depends on what 'you' want it to achieve-I've stated that I only use it to ensure the rig lies flat. I can't say what advantage it might give you over your existing choice, as I have never considered testing it thus...

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:D Ok...

Depends on what 'you' want it to achieve-I've stated that I only use it to ensure the rig lies flat. I can't say what advantage it might give you over your existing choice, as I have never considered testing it thus...

Ok fair enough, looks like neither of us have tried in a real situation "the other option". Perhaps anyone else, who actually has tried both options, might jump in and help us out?

I would really like to see if there is a measurable difference. In other words, I would like to find out if I can improve my rigs. Anyone?

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Guest JonM

Mario

I agree that there is no single rig which is ultimately effective, and neither do I consider this a problem, there would be no challenge if carp fishing were a certainty. However, I'd rather have the odds in my favour if possible, and from my own interpretations, and the underwater footage I've seen, we have a fair way to go. What I am concerned with is improving the odds of a pick-up, not making up fancy rigs.

So far as improving your rigs-it depends on what you want to achieve given a more precise situation. If I wanted to hook any carp that came by on a clear bottom-I would use one rig. If I were looking to be more selective, then something entirely different. If I want to test a new variable, I fish the rigs close together, and rotate the rods following each and every pick-up.

Louis

Your mention of the withy pool rig is very valid. There is no doubting it's put its fair share of fish on the bank, though personally I don't think it's reliable for neutrally buoyant, or bottom baits. I believe similar to yourself, regarding the blow-back theory.

The latter version of your stiff rig, though with a straight pointed hook and soft hair, is my preffered rig when fishing a clear bottom for any carp that moves. My best session ever, involved 1100lb of carp banked in 5 hours using this rig, it literally seems to just pop onto the bottom lip the instant the bait is mouthed. On the supple versus stiff hair debate, I would go supple most of the time, preffering to retain some natural movement in the bait.

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I've been meaning to put this rig up for a while. In the few sessions I've fished this year, it has quickly become my confidence rig. It saved at least one session for me- I didn't catch all day until I tied it on.

rig1mp4.jpg

It's a pretty simple rig- seven inches of 15lb snakebite, with the last inch to the hook stripped, a size 6 nash fang X, and a half inch shrinktube line aligner, with the tube curved to line up the end of the tube with the hook point. Here I'm using a 2oz pyramid lead in a safety clip- they hold bottom really nicely and only cost a quarter.

Here's a closeup of the hook end:

rig2pl6.jpg

All fish on this rig have come on exactly five grains of canned corn.

As I get more sessions in later this year I'll try the rig with different hook styles and see if I can't improve it some more.

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drop down rig

4 to 6 inch hooklink, either coated braid or crimped 20+ stiff link.

drop_down_rig.jpg

blowback partical rig

soft 4 to 6 inch hooklink

blow-back.jpg

Edited by Big Buffalo

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