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corny

Need some facts

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I'm in a pretty hot dispute on another forum. He says that carp are junk fish, destroy habitat and are oxygen hogs.

I remember reading that they arent "that" much of a nusence. Please hook me up with some facts so I can show this dude up.

Thanks

Adam

Edited by corny

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your swimming upstream why waste your time with the uninformed plenty of lakes with huge bass populations etc that cohabitate with carp . he might be right about being junk fish :rolleyes: but remember one mans junk is another mans treasure. :yourock: man does more damage to waterways than carp could ever do .

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This is true, Mark. He was just laying out some facts and i wanted to throw a couple back at him. On a side note, I was getting out all my fishing gear out of storage and thought about you when I grabbed my JRC Holdall I bought from you a couple years back. it's still going strong!

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Carp can survive with less o2 than most. That's why they do so well in polluted hot water.

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I'm in a pretty hot dispute on another forum. He says that carp are junk fish, destroy habitat and are oxygen hogs.

I remember reading that they arent "that" much of a nusence. Please hook me up with some facts so I can show this dude up.

Thanks

Adam

In other words, he's not having much luck like catching anything. :rolleyes:

edit: added the word "luck"

Edited by KingKool

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Guest phonebush

Corny,

Later this afternoon (evening) I can give you all the "facts" you want. The question begs WHY? These guys NEVER change their minds - NEVER. The only thing I can't define for you from your post is "junk fish". What the heck is a "junk fish"?

A better question to pose to this guy. What is the purpose of sporting fish in the first place? Make him tell you what to know what role a sporting fish "serves" in his mind. Really, carp aren't a very good species if your goal is to justify a $40,000.00 boat or 500 lures is it? OTOH if your goal is the possibility of catching a 40 lb fish - - - well you get my drift.

You need to be able to argue apples to apples.

Phone

They NEVER change their minds - - - NEVER

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They NEVER change their minds - - - NEVER

----

Phone,

I agree with your reply 99%. The 1% I disagree with is the quote above.

You'll occasionally find an individual who is willing to listen to the facts, and who might change his thinking. I, myself, was raised hearing the 'hype' that carp were detrimental to other (supposedly more desirable) species. Regrettably, I admit that in my earliest carp-fihing days, while I was still 'uninformed', I even killed two "trophy sized" (in my mind) carp, believing at the time that it was OK to do so. One I brought home "just to show it off", then buried it in the garden, and the other I traded to a guy for a six-pack.

Over the past 40 years, and armed with more accurate information, I've obviously changed my opinion, so others can, too. I do agree with you that far too many people still regard carp as an undesirable species, and that most of those folks will be reluctant to change that opinion regardless of the facts we might present. But it's NOT a lost cause, and it's still worth trying! At least I believe there's a better chance to change a person's mind on this issue by presenting the facts, that to change that same person's opinion on political issues! :rolleyes:

- Barry

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Junk fish=Garbage Fish=Undesired Species

This guy works for the Michigan DNR and is working on a project to lower the populations of carp. I'm starting to think that he is talking about the Asian Carp not the Common Carp. He is pretty set in his ways, and I respect his opinion. It just chaps my ham that he is so closed minded about it.

Phone,

He most likely will never change his mind, but I do want to educate him on why we (carpers) find carp so desirable. I'm sure carp have some sort of negative impact in the water, I just know it's not the kind of detrimental impact he is refering too. He has posted some scientific facts, and I would just like to answer his with my own.

Thanks

Adam

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Junk fish=Garbage Fish=Undesired Species

This guy works for the Michigan DNR

Whats the guys name? and which forum?.

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Guest phonebush

Corny,

You tell him I am an "expert" on Common Carp. There are VERY few "facts" about Common Carp. For example, "carp uproot plants and cause cloudy water" In my seventy years I have never seen a scientific study on the subject that supports this statement - never. He will state this as "fact" when actually it is an incorrect "opinion". The "fact" is (in the absence of any known studies) Common carp, by themselves do NOT disrupt the limnology of water quality where they are present as a naturalized species.

Be SURE Sure sure you are talking about Common Carp (Cyprinus carpio). It is a shame some "harmful" species are also called "carp" (IE Asian Carp). If he is not talking about Common Carp - just agree with him, you've been talking apples and oranges.

Phone

Ohh and IMO the way to control Common Carp populations in MI waters is to do a better job of stocking predatory fish. MI does about as poor a job as any state in the upper Midwest. If you remove the preditors what are the prey supposed to do? MI DNR is laying down on the job and trying to blame Common Carp - a 100 year old ploy.

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Whats the guys name? and which forum?.

Don't know his name, just his handle. It is on a jeep forum

Never thought about it that way Phone. you always make sense. thanks

Edited by corny

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your swimming upstream why waste your time with the uninformed

Just not so Mark.....It is in the way you present your argument that wins or loses people :rolleyes:

These guys NEVER change their minds - NEVER.

Phone

They NEVER change their minds - - - NEVER

They do Phone, they do, it takes time, but present it in the correct way and you will change minds......

The best way to change minds is to be informed yourself, just trying to convince people without being informed correctly yourself will never work..........get yourself informed, show them that you are knowledgeable, and you would be amazed what can happen.....

Trust me I speak from experience here :yourock::o Trying to bash people over the head with tons of stuff regarding how good carp are is not the way, you put peoples backs up straight away......get informed, get facts, quote facts, show them that there is another side to the argument and back it up with facts and you will be surprised what can be achieved :P

Edited by ukcarperinusa

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Just not so Mark.....It is in the way you present your argument that wins or loses people :yourock:

Karl im sure talking to this individual is just like trying to get you to change your mind ......... all upstream :rolleyes:

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Mark

Once again you seem to want to make this about personalities :rolleyes:

I am telling you that if you present your argument in the correct way you will reap the rewards........... :o

I would just love to give you the example we are working on at the moment, and have been behind the scenes for sometime now, but unfortunately cannot run the risk of someone trying to throw a wrench in the works, :P so will wait until all the tee's are crossed and i's are dotted before letting the cat out of the bag!!!

But you can rest assured had we taken the same "Swimming upstream" attitude you espouse , we would be no further on than when we first started. :P

There is a lot to be said for the Presidents attitude of catching more bees with honey!!! :yourock:

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Guest phonebush

Let me qualify my remarks.

On a computer forum - without looking the guy in the eys - - - without the advantage of showing them you are sincere - - - - - - - I would stand by my NEVER comment. Of course, on the waters edge or at a community sports show or in just any number of "personal contact" ways people learn and indeed do change their minds.

But over the internet - - - my experience is 100% negative.

Also, may I say I am guilty of overstating my case a little. I have no idea what kind of job the MI DNR really does. My statement is as factul as his "carp are junk" statement. That doesn't make either person right.

Phone

Edit: Mr fitzz, do I detect fire coming from your post?

Edited by phonebush

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Carp have long been blamed for environmental problems that were actually caused by agricultural and industrial practices; Carp were able to survive in the bad water conditions caused by Human activity and were, therefore, often nearly the only species left in the end, so people assumed they must have made it happen. You should look for a copy of the book "Fishing for Buffalo." It mentions this unfortunate misunderstanding.

I would have to do some library research to provide many "facts," but there are indications that, in some very small ponds with not inlets or outlets, Common Carp can indeed cause a sedimentation problem by "rooting" for bugs in the bottom mud. However, this is rare, and occurs only in water systems that have too few predators in the first place to eat immature Carp before they grow too large. I can say with certainty that "healthy" ecosystems (i.e. those with large predator populations), like the Grand River in my neighborhood, support both very large Carp populations and very large populations of "gamefish" and other native species, like Suckers, Catfish, Bowfin, and Gar. Common sense tells me that the Carp must not be hurting things if so many other fish are around.

You have to forgive the Michigan DNR guy; they are still indoctrinated in their job by the idea that Carp are a problem. Some of them are beginning to "see the light," though. They'll REALLY see the light when they find out that people are coming from out of state and SPENDING THEIR MONEY HERE just to fish for Carp! :rolleyes:

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Guest phonebush

Anna,

Although I refuse to admit it, there is at least "ONE" study I am familiar with. In WI a study associated with the Huracon(sp)(?) disaster I believe that's where there was a "study". It, the study, to was a disaster. The real point is that where nature has been allowed to "balance" itself many naturalized species exist together. Both predatory fish and non-predatory.

I notice you name by species several non gamefish natives to your state. Can you name any major "gamefish" (MI DNR) that are native? - - - Nope, all naturalized. (maybe some of the pike family? is native?)

Phone

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I find threads like this interesting because it gets me researching vintage photos.

When someone complains about the carp infestation all you have to do is look back into history, before there were creel limits.

These are vintage photos from Michigan.

As mentioned earlier, removing the preditors, makes for a happy carp population. :rolleyes:

post-2782-1239133414.jpg

post-2782-1239133373.jpg

post-2782-1239133353.jpg

post-2782-1239133330.jpg

post-2782-1239133297.jpg

post-2782-1239133262.jpg

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Remember that you will catch more flys (and influence more people) with honey than with Vinegar.

I understand the desire to strike a blow, but the best you can often do is just be extremely polite and courteus, and try to interject just a dash of doubt into their arguments. Then walk away.

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Remember that you will catch more flys (and influence more people) with honey than with Vinegar.

I understand the desire to strike a blow, but the best you can often do is just be extremely polite and courteus, and try to interject just a dash of doubt into their arguments. Then walk away.

Well said.

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I notice you name by species several non gamefish natives to your state. Can you name any major "gamefish" (MI DNR) that are native? - - - Nope, all naturalized. (maybe some of the pike family? is native?)

Phone

I know that all the Salmonids except Lake Trout are introduced/naturalised, and so are Largemouth Bass. As far as I know, though, Pike, Musky, Bluegill and Pumpkinseed, and Perch are native to at least some areas of Michigan. I don't have a clue about Crappie, White Bass, or Walleye, and, of course, most of the "course" fish are natives: all the Suckers, Freshwater Drum, Burbot, Bowfin, Longnose Gar, Lake Sturgeon, Channel Catfish, Bullheads, etc. Grayling are native but are now extinct in Michigan. Everybody here swears that Flathead Catfish are native, but I think that, at the very most, this is the northernmost edge of their range.

Edited by Anna Werner

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