Jump to content
Carp Anglers Group Forums
Carphd

Big 4 rule Discussion

Recommended Posts

So I guess the three 40lbers I have in my private pond won't work?? I guess no ones farm pond would count?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So I guess the three 40lbers I have in my private pond won't work?? In guess no ones farm pond would count?

In WV your pond would count! In fact the WV State Record Carp a 47lb. Common was caught in a "Farm Pond- Preston Co."

So would that count here in this deal?

EDIT: grammer errors

Edited by possum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS. and I definitely agree that the rules for this top-4 event (since it's clearly going to happen) should definitely be aligned as much as possible on the big fish awards rules. I don't quite understand this private/public water rule either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think public waters is pretty clear whether you fish it from public or private land should be irrelavent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So I guess the three 40lbers I have in my private pond won't work?? I guess no ones farm pond would count?

Finally somebody gets it. You can't use fish from private waters for records in many states, incl PA. in many states, private land does not mean private water if it's navigable by boat. it's all up to local laws.

Let me make it easy. No backyard ponds. no pay lakes where they netted 50's and dropped them off. Is that so hard to swallow? if the big fish rules are not set to exclude these things.. they should be. no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Finally somebody gets it. You can't use fish from private waters for records in many states, incl PA. in many states, private land does not mean private water if it's navigable by boat. it's all up to local laws.

Let me make it easy. No backyard ponds. no pay lakes where they netted 50's and dropped them off. Is that so hard to swallow? if the big fish rules are not set to exclude these things.. they should be. no?

No...YOU seem to not "get it" on this. The BFA's have always been the standard. They have always included paylakes (or, rather, not EXCLUDED them...).

While I knew what you meant, your rule interpretation on this event is definately wanting. If you'd simply either:

A. Left the rules the same as the BFA...or...

B. Solidify the "new" rules for this event...there'd be no poo-pooing and "what if's"...

Either would be great, and I know you are working on that. However, trying to imply that we "don't get it" in your post is kinda pompous when it's you, it seems, who doesn't get it. Once you vaguely try and incorperate new rules, you open gray area. I pointed out that if you exclude paylakes, you then have to exclude Tomhannock and further, exclude the private section at B'ville per YOUR rule interpretation. You then cannot seperate them just because you'd fish Tommy but not a paylake...or simply because one is a puddle and the other is 1,700 acres. Both are "private" by your definition, therefore both are not valid in this event. See the gray area?

Eliminate the gray area is simple. Keep the rules the same as they have been for years. Or, be strict and deciscive on them either way.

Now...do you "get it"?? :rolleyes:

Edited by Big Carphuna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No...YOU seem to not "get it" on this. The BFA's have always been the standard. They have always included paylakes (or, rather, not EXCLUDED them...).

While I knew what you meant, your rule interpretation on this event is definately wanting. If you'd simply either:

A. Left the rules the same as the BFA...or...

B. Solidify the "new" rules for this event...there'd be no poo-pooing and "what if's"...

Either would be great, and I know you are working on that. However, trying to imply that we "don't get it" in your post is kinda pompous when it's you, it seems, who doesn't get it. Once you vaguely try and incorperate new rules, you open gray area. I pointed out that if you exclude paylakes, you then have to exclude Tomhannock and further, exclude the private section at B'ville per YOUR rule interpretation. You then cannot seperate them just because you'd fish Tommy but not a paylake...or simply because one is a puddle and the other is 1,700 acres. Both are "private" by your definition, therefore both are not valid in this event. See the gray area?

Eliminate the gray area is simple. Keep the rules the same as they have been for years. Or, be strict and deciscive on them either way.

Now...do you "get it"?? :rolleyes:

Sorry Scott, I'm struggling to see how Tommy is the same as a private paylake.. :yourock: surely stocking 40's into a puddle is different from catching "wild fish" .. :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scott - The Mayor of Troy isn't the owner of Tommahonock, it's owned by the city (a public entity), you need New York State Fishing License to fish it and NY DEC can enforce law on it. Now a private water by any stretch of the definition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh?? So anyone can show up and fish Tommy without paying the city of Troy? Who's name endorses Troy city employees...including the Rangers that would throw you (or I) off Tomhannock with a big ass slap if we don't buy the permit??

FACT is it is NOT a NY PUBLIC water. It is a PRIVATE (hence the fact that if a paylake is private, so is Tomhannock) WATER, NOT opened to the general public without a special permit at cost. Paylake?? SAME THING. You and/or I can fish a paylake if we want, but we have to pay the folks that own THE PRIVATE PROPERTY that contains the water in question.

Sorry Pat, but as the "Grand Pubah" of the City of Troy, the Mayor heads the council which overseas all aspects of it's drinking water supply. He has the final say in anything to do with Troy Watershed issues. Now, he can (and does) deligate this duty to a council of his choice, but the FACT is HE oversees what happens on Tomhannock Reservoir!! NOT the State of NY DEC!!!

Tomhannock is a PRIVATE WATER, and by Louis' vague definition of "private" here, not eligible in this event. Period.

My point to Louis is that by opening up gray area with vague rule changes, he should not be surprised when people question things. He certainly shouldn't have that cavalier snappy attitude towards the people who do question it.

Will I enter? Probably not after this, unless the rules aren't gonna exclude venues unfairly.

BTW, Pat, the NY DEC can enforce basic laws on Tommy ONLY because the City of Troy grants them the right to. NY DEC has NO rights on the water unless the Mayor sees fit to let them. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who wants to put a tournament on there!! The NY DEC, I Love NY, and any other entity in NY State can babble all they want. Unless the MAYOR and his council SAY they can, it's a NO GO.

Private. The lands and waters of Tomhannock Reservoir are TOTALLY private!!! Total jurisdiction of the Mayor of Troy, NY!!

Edited by Big Carphuna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry Scott, I'm struggling to see how Tommy is the same as a private paylake.. :rolleyes: surely stocking 40's into a puddle is different from catching "wild fish" .. :yourock:

Not by Louis' definition of "private" here. Tomhannock is no more public than a paylake. Simple.

Now, the consequences of the catch(es) may differ between the waters, but one is just as "private" as the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tomhannock Reservoir is on Tomhannock Creek in Rensselaer County, New York and is used for drinking water purposes. Construction was completed in 1905. Its normal surface area is 2.7 square miles. It is owned by the City Of Troy.

I have to agree with Scott on this. This body of water is not public. You can't swim or boat in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tomhannock Reservoir is on Tomhannock Creek in Rensselaer County, New York and is used for drinking water purposes. Construction was completed in 1905. Its normal surface area is 2.7 square miles. It is owned by the City Of Troy.

I have to agree with Scott on this. This body of water is not public. You can't swim or boat in it.

In this case you could throw out thousands of acres that make up the entire NYC watershed as well. Same rules apply as do at Tommy, only difference is no fee, just a permit obtained. The way I understood it was as long as anyone COULD fish the water (even if it was by obtaining a permit and or paying a permit "fee") the water would be valid. If it was a private "club" on private property that one could not fish unless "invited"? Well, that's a different thing altogether.

I guess I'll withdraw my entire prediction on page #1 of this thread! :yourock:

This was a cool idea, but I knew it would draw the endless debate we will now see. I'll steer clear of this one, but will follow it closely (just for threads like these! :rolleyes: ).

-MD/CT

Edited by ctcarper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tomhannock Reservoir is on Tomhannock Creek in Rensselaer County, New York and is used for drinking water purposes. Construction was completed in 1905. Its normal surface area is 2.7 square miles. It is owned by the City Of Troy.

I have to agree with Scott on this. This body of water is not public. You can't swim or boat in it.

The city of Troy isn't a private corporation or individual, the state of Maryland owns the Potomac River, it doesn't make it private :rolleyes: The fact that you can't swim or boat doesn't prove anything.

Saying that, it's pretty obvious that the difference between public and private is too much for most people to grasp. Gotta love the way whenever someone tries to do something around here it gets nit picked to death. Louis' intent is pretty obvious.

Edited by pmk00001

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well this whole CAG Big 4 is a nice idea but it really doesn't serve CAG Members on equal footing.

Some areas of North America have considerably larger fish than other areas. If you live in say NY your chances of winning are alot greater than if you live in say WV.

A CAG member who can travel stands a better chance to win where as some of us who would be forced to fish locally are stuck here with next to no chance short of divine intervention of winning. So for some people like myself why even enter an event that theres really no chance for me to win?

If I enter I want to win or try to win but since I've been fishing here a 20lb. carp is a perty good, but 4 20's prolly won't cut it in this event. Where as in say NY a 20lb. carp ain't anything all that special.

I can't afford to travel to where bigger carp are abundant so theres no real point in me entering this event.

And this event leaves out CAG's Paylakers who enjoy their sport as much as the Wildwater peoples enjoy their sport!

This event divides in my opinion and doesn't bring CAG together! Can't play if your a paylaker and you have next to no chances to win if you can't travel or don't live in a big fish area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(even if it was by obtaining a permit and or paying a permit "fee") the water would be valid.

Mike, on Paylakes, anyone could fish them as long as, just like Tomhannock, you pay a fee to the people who own it...

If it was a private "club" on private property that one could not fish unless "invited"?

Paylake, though smaller than Tomhannock, have the same rules regarding who can fish it and how.

-MD/CT

Gotta love the way whenever someone tries to do something around here it gets nit picked to death.

Likewise, gotta love it when someone tries to have a discussion clarifying something, and the person person talks to us, who dare question anything, like a kid. Then, his "can-do-no-wrong minions" jump in with no knowledge of the water in question just to "defend" the honor of "the man"! We can go back and forth about everyone's intentions, Pat, but you're just as guilty as I am in this thread!

Louis' intent is pretty obvious.

So is yours here, Pat! Saying this, so is mine for that matter!

Guess I didn't "stay out" like I had hoped...LOL

My intent for all this is simple: Louis opened up gray area and we were discussing it fairly well, I think. I took exception to Louis, like he is occasionally prone to, talking down his nose to anyone who seems to "dare question anything" when he's the one who opened the gray area. It happens. We would have been fine.

Edited by Big Carphuna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how about saying "any water where a state issued fishing license is required ". regardless of fee paying or who owns what blah blah blah . :rolleyes::yourock::o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
how about saying "any water where a state issued fishing license is required ". regardless of fee paying or who owns what blah blah blah . :rolleyes::yourock::o

The point of the thread was to discuss the rules to get an exact. This, or any clear final rule, would be fine IMO.

The only problem is from what I know (and it isn't a lot), that you need a license on some paylakes, and not others. Still, if anyone planning to participate is going to a paylake, they will have to find out their lake's rules.

Seems simple to me. Though not nearly as simple as just adopting the BFA rules...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The point of the thread was to discuss the rules to get an exact. This, or any clear final rule, would be fine IMO.

The only problem is from what I know (and it isn't a lot), that you need a license on some paylakes, and not others. Still, if anyone planning to participate is going to a paylake, they will have to find out their lake's rules.

Seems simple to me. Though not nearly as simple as just adopting the BFA rules...

simple is good :rolleyes: heres an exact ...... any water that needs a state issued license is fair game wild or not....... those who want to fish a paylake that requires a license ( are there any ) ? can then also participate it excludes no one then it only excludes a few waters :yourock:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well this whole CAG Big 4 is a nice idea but it really doesn't serve CAG Members on equal footing.

Some areas of North America have considerably larger fish than other areas. If you live in say NY your chances of winning are alot greater than if you live in say WV.

A CAG member who can travel stands a better chance to win where as some of us who would be forced to fish locally are stuck here with next to no chance short of divine intervention of winning. So for some people like myself why even enter an event that theres really no chance for me to win?

If I enter I want to win or try to win but since I've been fishing here a 20lb. carp is a perty good, but 4 20's prolly won't cut it in this event. Where as in say NY a 20lb. carp ain't anything all that special.

I can't afford to travel to where bigger carp are abundant so theres no real point in me entering this event.

And this event leaves out CAG's Paylakers who enjoy their sport as much as the Wildwater peoples enjoy their sport!

This event divides in my opinion and doesn't bring CAG together! Can't play if your a paylaker and you have next to no chances to win if you can't travel or don't live in a big fish area.

I'm sure as the event grows it will contain a regional and maybe even state component. In fact there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that now. For example, I could try and find sponsorship and offer a prize to the biggest carp submitted to the Big 4 from a DC/MD/VA member.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sure as the event grows it will contain a regional and maybe even state component. In fact there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that now. For example, I could try and find sponsorship and offer a prize to the biggest carp submitted to the Big 4 from a DC/MD/VA member.

I think regional would be fairer. Not picking on anyone or any state but I see certain states/areas rarely offer up anything much over 20lbs. while others a 20 doesn't hardly get a mention.

The regions need better defined and corrected! WV is in the Mid-Atlantic for some strange reason yet WV touches no part of the Atlantic, we would be better suited to be in the Ohio Valley since WV owns the Ohio River where we border Ohio for a couple hundred miles or so, but thats another issue in itself. I just wanted to mention that!

But Regional might be better and more fair. The "any water where a state issued fishing license is required " is a good rule but leaves out the Paylakers.

This constant division of Wildwater guys and Paylaker guys does Carp Fishing in general no good whatsoever in my opinon.

Just for the record I have never fished a paylake for carp but I'm not against paylaking. If its legal and floats your boat then do it! :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My question would be simply...Why not just adopt the long-time (like 16 years!!) BFA rules which have always served just ducky??

Theres a starting point! Why not??? Then the rules could be modified or changed next year if need be!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Possum,

Pat's post was on target in terms of the event growing. On all things growing, you'll have growing pains. It's quite obvious a lot of people would be a bit "handicapped" by the original design of the event. Then there's others, myself definately included, who have a much easier time to compete as it stands now. BUT, as these things get rolling (like the CAGI did, or FFF, etc...), things always change for the better with experience. In the meantime, those who may not have the luxury of being able to compete against those who fish big waters regularly can either participate handicapped, wait, or not enter at all.

I do have to say this, though, WV will give up some nice fish this year. :rolleyes:

IMO, the way the BFA rules have always been should suffice in this too. I can see the arguments on either side of paylakes being included, but really, are there seriously gonna be any paylakers entering this??? Leaving the rules as is in a "ain't broke, don't fix it" way simply doesn't alienate anyone and has always served the club well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...