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Leaving the rules as is

Depends on what your definition of Is is. :rolleyes: sorry, just couldn't resist.

BFA rule is (Fish must be caught according to local laws & regulations) I quess I am confused, does that not include private waters or paylakes.

I like this but add "Any public access water where a state issued fishing license is required " seems simple enough.

So, you may have to pay a fee, but you also need to have a state license.

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Depends on what your definition of Is is. :rolleyes: sorry, just couldn't resist.

BFA rule is (Fish must be caught according to local laws & regulations) I quess I am confused, does that not include private waters or paylakes.

I like this but add "Any public access water where a state issued fishing license is required " seems simple enough.

So, you may have to pay a fee, but you also need to have a state license.

I see your point, but why exclude paylakes simply because you, I, and Louis may not fish them? Are there really gonna be any paylakers enter, and if they do, tally up 4 big fish to compete? Just seems silly to play with the rules to exclude paylakers for no real reason but the fact you or I may not fish them.

Again, it's Louis' ball. If he doesn't want paylakers to play with it, then that's his choice. I just don't see the point in changing what's never been broken, and thus opening up a can of worms. Unless, of course, that's your bait of choice... :yourock:

Oh, and, Tomhannock is not a "public access" water...LOL

Edited by Big Carphuna

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I really had no idea this would be such a contentious issue, I thought it was more of a standard for this kind of tournament, and most states' records. All the local tournaments I have run were set up with that line so I just did it the same way. If others would want that line taken out, Then that's ok I guess. But it seems a little corny to me that somebody could win this competition or our BFA by fishing in a backyard pond where fish had been fed by hand for 15 years.

Here is a rule from bountyfishing.com, a huge online tournament:

Absolutely no fish caught in fish hatchery waters, fish culture stations, "Fish & Pay" Lakes, private ponds or fishing preserves may be submitted. Furthermore, no fish captured using unconventional methods is eligible.

...

New York State recently changed its laws to some wishy washy stance on wild brook trout vs those stocked at trophy weight because catching recently stocked giants was becoming an issue:

Note: As a result of issues that arose with recent submissions for brook trout, the Bureau of Fisheries reviewed and adjusted the Rules of Entry for New York State Record brook trout so that additional problems could be avoided. The Bureau based the changes upon the conviction that recently stocked, record-sized brook trout do not meet the highest ideals and expectations of New York's anglers. Rather, New York anglers would be more honored to be recognized for the challenge of catching a wilder, record-sized brookie. To that end, the following changes have been made to the Angler Achievement Awards Program:

11. Since October 1, 2002, the Rules of Entry require that in order to qualify for a State Record brook trout, the fish must be either a wild-spawned or long-term, at-large brookie. For determining whether a fish meets this criteria, the Bureau of Fisheries has established procedures and protocols that it will follow.

12. Because of the difficulty in distinguishing a brook trout from a splake, any fish caught from waters stocked with splake will be ineligible for state record brook trout consideration.

13. DEC will only stock brook trout that are near or exceeding five pounds into waters that contain splake, or into waters which will be ineligible for state record brook trout consideration.

14. On March 31, 2003 the current brook trout state record was again placed in "historical standing." New State Record brook trout applications will be accepted subject to a minimum qualifying weight of four pounds.

^ that points to the fact that this is a real growing issue around fishing. People have criticized world record carp catches from Europe right here on our forum for being fake over fed pets.

I think the origin of fish is important for poetic reasons, but maybe y'all don't. I'm not trying to cut out paylakers or anyone else really. I'd be happy to fish a paylake, and I don;t think there is anyone wrong with those that do. I just think if a fish is caught under artificial circumstances, it cheapens the catch a little for a big event like this. That is part of the reason I don't do much trout fishing in my area. It's almost all phoney stockies. Carp fishing has a real natural way about it, some mystery that other fisheries have lost. Why not hold onto that? I mean what if our BFA came from a mobile pond at an outdoor show like they set up for kids... the cabelas aquarium.. Where does it end?

What do you all think it should say? I'd really like to hear your thoughts of this in terms of the BFA as well, because If somebody turns in a fish from their farm pond I'd like to see it turned down.

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The city of Troy isn't a private corporation or individual, the state of Maryland owns the Potomac River, it doesn't make it private :rolleyes: The fact that you can't swim or boat doesn't prove anything.

Saying that, it's pretty obvious that the difference between public and private is too much for most people to grasp. Gotta love the way whenever someone tries to do something around here it gets nit picked to death. Louis' intent is pretty obvious.

In general if the state owns it is considered public property if the city owns it it is city property. If the city is a corporation then it is not public.

Also

The City Clerk's Office issues fishing permits for the Tomhannock Reservoir. The permit is $10 for 2 years. To purchase a new one or renew, you must show a valid driver's license and a current NYS Fishing License. Persons 70 years of age and older are eligible for a FREE permit with proper proof of age.

This is from the cities webpage on permits. If permits are restricted to those that pay and have a drivers license then you cannot consider this public.

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Has there been an issue before regarding "hand fed" fish being entered into any CAG events?

If someone has to enter a fish into the BFA from a tiny, private water, well, people will see it for what it is. Then the rule should be changed accordingly.

I liken it to 1999, when Mike Koester won the BFA from the Rurh River in Germany. It counted that year, but foreign catches were not allowed after as this is a carp club for the N.A. and the ammendments made after as necessary.

People will see things for what they are Louis. IMO no need to change things on a "what if" scenario...

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In general if the state owns it is considered public property if the city owns it it is city property. If the city is a corporation then it is not public.

Also

The City Clerk's Office issues fishing permits for the Tomhannock Reservoir. The permit is $10 for 2 years. To purchase a new one or renew, you must show a valid driver's license and a current NYS Fishing License. Persons 70 years of age and older are eligible for a FREE permit with proper proof of age.

This is from the cities webpage on permits. If permits are restricted to those that pay and have a drivers license then you cannot consider this public.

Why, those are requirements to buy a fishing license in Pennsylvania. Part of the application form is your drivers license number, and you must carry your drivers license or photo id along with your license. One time I had my license on me but no id, and the CO gave me and my friends a real hard time. He took my girlfriend aside and asked her all kinds of questions about my address etc to verify it was my license.

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Why, those are requirements to buy a fishing license in Pennsylvania. Part of the application form is your drivers license number, and you must carry your drivers license or photo id along with your license. One time I had my license on me but no id, and the CO gave me and my friends a real hard time. He took my girlfriend aside and asked her all kinds of questions about my address etc to verify it was my license.

See Louis?? Gray area....

The BFA rules didn't have any... LOL

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Has there been an issue before regarding "hand fed" fish being entered into any CAG events?

If someone has to enter a fish into the BFA from a tiny, private water, well, people will see it for what it is. Then the rule should be changed accordingly.

I liken it to 1999, when Mike Koester won the BFA from the Rurh River in Germany. It counted that year, but foreign catches were not allowed after as this is a carp club for the N.A. and the ammendments made after as necessary.

People will see things for what they are Louis. IMO no need to change things on a "what if" scenario...

I'm sorry scott I don't mean to be disrespectful but that is a pretty silly stance IMO.

I prefer to design the tournament to avoid issues that would make it completely loose credibility. Yes, people would see that for what it is... and there would be a storm of arguments and talk about how CAG was unprofessional, and the next year less people would enter.

here is the rule from PA:

4. Fish must be caught in Pennsylvania waters open to the public without charge, fee, special permission or

membership. Waters open to the public are those waters open without condition, restriction or requirement set

forth by the landowner or lessor. Farm and private ponds, regulated fishing lakes, ponds or stream sections or

waters restricted to use by club members or their guests are not considered open to the public, even if no fee is

charged.

By their definition, Tomhannock would be out. I would have considered it in since the water is owned by the people.. but it seems there is a lot of ways to look at it.

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I do have to say this, though, WV will give up some nice fish this year. :P

I think theres a good chance of that happening! :yourock: (fingers crossed :rolleyes:)

IMO, the way the BFA rules have always been should suffice in this too. I can see the arguments on either side of paylakes being included, but really, are there seriously gonna be any paylakers entering this??? Leaving the rules as is in a "ain't broke, don't fix it" way simply doesn't alienate anyone and has always served the club well.

I can see your point and agree! :o

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In general if the state owns it is considered public property if the city owns it it is city property. If the city is a corporation then it is not public.

Also

The City Clerk's Office issues fishing permits for the Tomhannock Reservoir. The permit is $10 for 2 years. To purchase a new one or renew, you must show a valid driver's license and a current NYS Fishing License. Persons 70 years of age and older are eligible for a FREE permit with proper proof of age.

This is from the cities webpage on permits. If permits are restricted to those that pay and have a drivers license then you cannot consider this public.

What city government's are incorporated? Is the city of Troy a corporation? Can you give me a link that says so? Is Yosemite Park not a public park because a fee is a charged?

By your definition every water I've ever fished is private as I needed an ID and a fishing license.

Edited by pmk00001

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What city government's are incorporated?

You're the Librarian, you tell us...

Is the city of Troy a corporation? Can you give me a link that says so?

Can you give him a link that says it's not?

Is Yosemite Park not a public park because a fee is a charged?

If a seperate charge was issued besides a State License to fish in the park, than yes, IN THIS EVENT...it IS considered private and the fish don't count.

By your definition every water I've ever fished is private as I needed an ID and a fishing license.

By your definition, paylakes are public as you don't need an ID nor a fishing license. Problem solved!! Only paylake fish count for this event!! :rolleyes:

Edited by Big Carphuna

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Scott:

If a seperate charge was issued besides a State License to fish in the park, than yes, IN THIS EVENT...it IS considered private and the fish don't count.

No. That's not true.

Lets go with this in terms of public water.

Main Entry:

1pub·lic Listen to the pronunciation of 1public

Pronunciation:

\ˈpə-blik\

Function:

adjective

Etymology:

Middle English publique, from Anglo-French, from Latin publicus; akin to Latin populus people

Date:

14th century

1 a: exposed to general view : open b: well-known , prominent c: perceptible , material

2 a: of, relating to, or affecting all the people or the whole area of a nation or state <public law> b: of or relating to a government c: of, relating to, or being in the service of the community or nation

3 a: of or relating to people in general : universal b: general , popular

4: of or relating to business or community interests as opposed to private affairs : social

5: devoted to the general or national welfare : humanitarian6 a: accessible to or shared by all members of the community b: capitalized in shares that can be freely traded on the open market —often used with go7: supported by public funds and private contributions rather than by income from commercials <public radio> <public television>

This would be the opposite:

Main Entry:

1pri·vate Listen to the pronunciation of 1private

Pronunciation:

\ˈprī-vət\

Function:

adjective

Etymology:

Middle English privat, from Anglo-French, from Latin privatus, from past participle of privare to deprive, release, from privus private, individual; probably akin to Latin pro for, in front of — more at for

Date:

14th century

1 a: intended for or restricted to the use of a particular person, group, or class <a private park> b: belonging to or concerning an individual person, company, or interest <a private house> c (1): restricted to the individual or arising independently of others <private opinion> (2): carried on by the individual independently of the usual institutions <a doctor in private practice> ; also : being educated by independent study or a tutor or in a private school <private students> d: not general in effect <a private statute> e: of, relating to, or receiving hospital service in which the patient has more privileges than a semiprivate or ward patient

2 a (1): not holding public office or employment <a private citizen> (2): not related to one's official position : personal <private correspondence> b: being a private

3 a: withdrawn from company or observation <a private retreat> b: not known or intended to be known publicly : secret c: preferring to keep personal affairs to oneself : valuing privacy highly d: unsuitable for public use or display

4: not having shares that can be freely traded on the open market <a private company>

You see, a public place can be visited by anyone, whether there is a fee or not, as deemed by the government. A private place is owned by an individual, or business who can turn away anyone they want. For example, if tomhannock was actually privately owned, they could turn away anyone at the clerks desk they wanted because they didn't like them. The same is true at a paylake, and all private property.

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Scott:

If a seperate charge was issued besides a State License to fish in the park, than yes, IN THIS EVENT (as your rules were being changed in this thread...btw)...it IS considered private and the fish don't count.

No. That's not true.

Yes it is...as YOUR rule changes were written in this thread. :yourock:

Lets go with this in terms of public water.

Main Entry:

1pub·lic Listen to the pronunciation of 1public

Pronunciation:

\ˈpə-blik\

Function:

adjective

Etymology:

Middle English publique, from Anglo-French, from Latin publicus; akin to Latin populus people

Date:

14th century

1 a: exposed to general view : open b: well-known , prominent c: perceptible , material

2 a: of, relating to, or affecting all the people or the whole area of a nation or state <public law> b: of or relating to a government c: of, relating to, or being in the service of the community or nation

3 a: of or relating to people in general : universal b: general , popular

4: of or relating to business or community interests as opposed to private affairs : social

5: devoted to the general or national welfare : humanitarian6 a: accessible to or shared by all members of the community b: capitalized in shares that can be freely traded on the open market —often used with go7: supported by public funds and private contributions rather than by income from commercials <public radio> <public television>

This would be the opposite:

Main Entry:

1pri·vate Listen to the pronunciation of 1private

Pronunciation:

\ˈprī-vət\

Function:

adjective

Etymology:

Middle English privat, from Anglo-French, from Latin privatus, from past participle of privare to deprive, release, from privus private, individual; probably akin to Latin pro for, in front of — more at for

Date:

14th century

1 a: intended for or restricted to the use of a particular person, group, or class <a private park>

Yes...this means only people who pay the fees to get into the paylake, Tomhannock...heck even places in CA like Santee and what not can fish them. Meaning, these waters ARE "restricted to the use of a particular person, group, or class"... :o

b: belonging to or concerning an individual person, company, or interest <a private house> c (1): restricted to the individual or arising independently of others <private opinion> (2): carried on by the individual independently of the usual institutions <a doctor in private practice> ; also : being educated by independent study or a tutor or in a private school <private students> d: not general in effect <a private statute> e: of, relating to, or receiving hospital service in which the patient has more privileges than a semiprivate or ward patient

2 a (1): not holding public office or employment <a private citizen> (2): not related to one's official position : personal <private correspondence> b: being a private

3 a: withdrawn from company or observation <a private retreat> b: not known or intended to be known publicly : secret c: preferring to keep personal affairs to oneself : valuing privacy highly d: unsuitable for public use or display

4: not having shares that can be freely traded on the open market <a private company>

You see, a public place can be visited by anyone, whether there is a fee or not, as deemed by the government. A private place is owned by an individual, or business who can turn away anyone they want. For example, if tomhannock was actually privately owned, they could turn away anyone at the clerks desk they wanted because they didn't like them. The same is true at a paylake, and all private property.

A Paylake and Tomhannock can be closed to the public at will by a private council (aka, the Mayor and his staff or the paylake's owner), and the clerk at City Hall can turn me away from renewing my permit at will. So, by this, Tomhannock and paylakes do NOT count...yes? :rolleyes:

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simple is good :rolleyes: heres an exact ...... any water that needs a state issued license is fair game wild or not....... those who want to fish a paylake that requires a license ( are there any ) ? can then also participate it excludes no one then it only excludes a few waters :yourock:

please no more semantics......... lets just make it simple .

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Frankly, why exclude paylakes? I think that is stupid. I do understand big fish are captured and stocked in a paylake. They still have to be caught. And frankly, I am MUCH more concerned about putting rules in place that don't allow an anglers integrity to come into play - such as lying about the size of fish, which is a distinct possibility.

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please no more semantics......... lets just make it simple .

Where's the fun in that? If it become's simple, I, Pat, Louis, Hammer, etc. can't continue to have the last word and prove how right we are!! LOL

Frankly, why exclude paylakes? I think that is stupid. I do understand big fish are captured and stocked in a paylake. They still have to be caught. And frankly, I am MUCH more concerned about putting rules in place that don't allow an anglers integrity to come into play - such as lying about the size of fish, which is a distinct possibility.

Thanks, Matt, for your on target post of reason!!

Edited by Big Carphuna

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Oh, and, Tomhannock is not a "public access" water...LOL

So, you need drivers license and fishing license, can anyone meeting that criteria fish it? If so, it is open to the public.

Geez louiz, you need a fishing license to fish public waters. you also have to show you drivers license to get you fishing license. :rolleyes:

Keep Louis's rules and anyone who questions there waters then speak-up and hash it out.

In my book The Tomhannock is OK because anyone can get a permit. Sure you may need to get your drivers license for ID but you need that to get your Jack D. I believe Jack is open to the public. :yourock:

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And Scott, you are still worng. Tomhannock is different than a PRIVATELY OWNED paylake. :rolleyes: your case wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

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In my book The Tomhannock is OK because anyone can get a permit. Sure you may need to get your drivers license for ID but you need that to get your Jack D. I believe Jack is open to the public. :rolleyes:

Thus, paylakes are OK because anyone can get in and fish them for a fee. Sure you may need to get your ID's, but you need to get that to get your Absolute Vodka. I believe Absolute is open to the public. :yourock:

Seriously, the more is written here, the more my point that there's no difference in this event's rules between Tomhannock and a paylake... :o

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And Scott, you are still worng. Tomhannock is different than a PRIVATELY OWNED paylake. :rolleyes: your case wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

Is this a "court of law"?? If so, what's your proof that IN THIS EVENT, Tomhannock is different than a paylake????? :yourock:

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This is getting silly.... can't we just all use our noggin here.... go with the same rules as the BFA.... no paylakers give a chit anyway, there's not enough $$ involved! :yourock::rolleyes:

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This is getting silly.... can't we just all use our noggin here.... go with the same rules as the BFA.... no paylakers give a chit anyway, there's not enough $$ involved! :yourock::rolleyes:

I agree...

But, people's prides are on the line with proving each other "wrong". None of us can let it go until we have our last say, Stew. You know this...LOL

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