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Guest Lee Baermann

An Observation

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Guest Lee Baermann

When I'm not tying flies or fishing, I hang out at Eric's Tackle Shop in Ventura. I tie 90% of his flies and handle his fly fishing section of the shop. We talked about web sites today and I went on one but all it was about was catching and keeping the fish. Now don't get me wrong, I believe that if you caught it, you get to decide what happens to it with in the law. Meaning undersized and out of season catches must be returned to the water. But this one site was all about showing of surf species that they just toss on the beach to die and everyone is fine with that. One picture was of two guys holding extremely undersized leopard sharks. They need to be 35 inches and these were maybe a foot long each. Then I read about the sport boats catching bonita and to my knowledge, they are not all that good to eat. But there they are on the deck holding bloody fish....................

I just hate to see fish wasted as in gaffed just for a picture as proof you caught it. Sorry for the rant but I don't see many, if at all, fly guys doing this...........

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Guest phonebush

Lee,

Stewardship is a late 20th and 21st century sportfishing issue. It, good stewardship, is certainly justified. I remember, as a boy, culling dead fish that weren't suitable for "keeping". Today, at 70 those memorys just chills my spine. I can't, for the life of me, figure out what my adult "teachers" were thinking. One good part of "urban" development is that fewer and fewer "sportsmen" even know how to clean and prepare fish. I think a lot of C&R is a simple case of the angler not knowing "what to do" with fish they catch so they don't even try, they just release them. My comments mostly refer to freshwater. I haven't fished the oceans here in Kansas for a number of years.

Phone

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I'm with you 100% Lee. I'm no tree hugger and one of the thing that gives me pause about some in the fly fishing community is when they worship at the alter of the trout. In other words it becomes more than a fish and has an almost (very small g) god like status. I believe in conservation and using the resource wisely. I am not someone that believes that you can never eat a fish. If you have a freezer full of fish, quit killing them because you are going to throw them away. As much as I fish, it's not in the best interest of the resource to keep or kill fish on every outting. I selectively harvest for my family and not the whole neighborhood and relatives. Wasting the resource is frustrating indeed.

More specifically to this site, I came across this recently and it just pissed me right off and right now. Yes, there is no shortage of carp in my local waters, but what a waste. Then I have to smell them rotting while I am fishing. Just burns me right up. Sent a letter with photos, locations and dates to the DNR, no response.

Rick

post-3296-1252074734.jpg

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Guest phonebush

Clay,

You think those were caught fish? Maybe an environmental or natural fish kill? Even the jerks don't usually pile them up.

Phone

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Clay,

You think those were caught fish? Maybe an environmental or natural fish kill? Even the jerks don't usually pile them up.

Phone

It's common in this spot. I have even offered to post the laws about leaving fish dead on the bank on my dime. Again, no response. I did see some kids shooting carp right up against the dam, which is also illegal to shoot within 200' of a dam in Wis; when I called to report it to my local DNR I got an answering machine that said I could leave a message if I wanted - UG. That was the so called "hotline number" by the way.

I had a guy throw a live carp in a run off tube and leave. I went pulled the fish out of the tube and released him. Like I said, if you put on the ground you do something possitive with them. I don't care if that means putting them in your garden, under a tomato plant but don't leave them to rot. Frustrating indeed. I have even thought of enlisting a couple of seniors that live in the building that is close to this location. I would love to just encourage them to take photos of people throwing fish on the ground and their license plates since most fisherman fish right there too. It's not the kids that do this the most. Just people with no respect for life.

By the way, this location is below a dam with fast current and there are several slack water areas. If it was a fish kill there would be dead fish in many locations. No this was the work of one sick SOB.

Now having said that, there are a lot of carp in the river. Take 'em if you want, just do something with them. Just one guys take on this.

Rick

Edited by Clay34

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Guest phonebush

Clay,

OHH,Ohh,ohh ! You're very sneeky but accidently slipped in the OPERATIVE word WIS.

I thought you were also in Calif. I've never seen a state with a more - - - hummm, - - - how can I say this - - - - more unusual position on carp than WI state. Many fishermen fish for carp in WI. WI is also ONE state that has carp populations that are WAY out of balance. Wherever there are carp in WI you really REALLY have carp. Lots and lots of little bitty carp.

A real issue in WI. What would you have them do? Mind you, I certainly not in favor of what is shown in your picture - it's discusting.

Phone

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What would you have them do? Mind you, I certainly not in favor of what is shown in your picture - it's discusting.

Phone

Pictures with no size reference are misleading. While there are no 20s in that shot, their are 30" plus fish in that photo. If you take them, and want to remove them from the water it is Wisconsin law for you to dispose of them. It's illegal to leave they lay and rot. Burry them in the garden, take them to the dump, and for a really novel idea you can legally just release them. I don't think that a few rotting carp or for that matter the 100 plus fish that I put in the net a year would make any difference in population except create an empty spot in the eco system for more reproduction. If you want them for food, yep some people eat them, for garden for whatever - cool. Just don't leave them on the bank for me to smell.

Sorry Lee for dominating this thread.

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Guest Lee Baermann

Rick, one area I fish has a small bridge and one day two guys were fishing from it when I came out from the locked gate. I made it a point to have them see me unlock and lock the gate back up so they wouldn't go that way when I wasn't there. I went to see them fish as I was truly interested and they had deep water ocean rigs with 3/0 football headed jigs. They were casting them into waters that the carp were spawning in and snagging carp. It is illegal here to snag fish so I went for a closer look. I did the play stupid deal and asked them how the fishing was. It was then that I noticed 4 carp lying on the ground gulping air. Figured I ask if they were going to eat them and they said they left them there so they would not snag them again. WT#?

I left and called CALTIP, our Department of Fish and Game's hotline to report illegal activity and got their recording. I left the description of the two guys, plus the license of their truck. I can't figure out where the joy of snagging spawning fish would come from at all.

On the beach, people toss the shovelnose guitar fish up on the sand to die because there is a ton of them so you hook a ton of them. Kind of a nuisance fish but fun to catch on a fly. Problem is these guys are bait fishing and hate to catch them.

In both cases above the crime is called "abuse if fish" by the Ca DFG and they love to cite people for it. And as in your photo, dead fish in the double diget numbers can smell really bad.

The local "meat eaters" or guys who keep fish crack me up. They'll go up to the Kern River, catch limits of trout, 5 a day but get limits in the am and pm for 10 a day. They'll fish 5 days for 50 trout that they'll wrap in tinfoil and stick in the freezer. Just before they take next years trip, they empty the fridge of more then half of what they caught meaning they did not eat it all. But these same guys will still bring home double limits because of ego. Keep what you catch but eat what keep..........................

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Guest phonebush

Lee, Clay,

No question, it only take a few real buttheads to change things for us all. I can remember being "one of those guys". The "reason" can be as varied as the country itself. Education and exposure, maybe a sense of guilt - - - I don't know what changes a person. I know, at the time, I thought the resource was endless and I had the approval of my peers. If we can catch them as kids we have the best chance.

Clay,

If you don't know it, look and read the Huricon WI incident. It was very interesting at the time and continues to be relevant in my mind. Google "Huricon"

Phone

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When I was fishing Grand Traverse Bay I came accross some tourist kids killing spawners with a baseball bat! They were maybe 10 years old, I sent them on their way but what kind of parents lets kids behave like that ? clearly brought up with no respect for life.

A mate from Australia tells me over there any Carp caught must be killed by law.The government are very much against alien species in light of enviromental disasters caused by Cane Toads ,Rabbits etc

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Guest Windknot

I read a river forum that has fly fishing posts where most of the people posting fish for smallmouth. Every once in a while somebody will post about getting rid of the carp in the river due to what they call river degradation from the rooting habits of the carp. They also make the argument that the carp are not native. That's when I point out that smallmouth bass are not native to most of the waters they are found!!! Is anybody aware of any research that addresses the damage carp may be causing where they are found?

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Guest Jon Rasmussen

Unfortunately, there are just way too many uneducated fisheries vigilantes out there. It's not just carp and other "trash fish" either, everyone wants lakes full of their favorite fish and no others. They all think that the best thing for "fish A" is to kill all of "fish B." No one seems to consider how many carp fry their precious bass, walleye, etc are eating and getting fat off of.

When I was up in Washington, I was playing with the the flyrod at a local lake one day catching bluegills and some small bass. After landing one of the bass, I had someone behind me speak up. It was a guy with a trailered drift boat and a truck with the name of his guide service on the side. He was telling me to kill the bass because they eat the trout. And this was in a lake where the trout were stocked and people lined the bank the next day to take home their limit of 10" pond-reared, hand-fed pellet guppies (My name for stocked trout that eat anything as long as it is neon colored.)

I admit, growing up in WI, I spent a couple springs from about age 14-16 snagging carp with big treble hooks which technically was illegal although it wasn't enforced for carp. A friend and I even had a warden stop and chat with us one day at a busy public park and he clearly saw what we were doing and didn't care. I was even catching them with my hands in a shallow bay one after the other. Despite all this I never killed a carp just to kill one. A couple went to the smokehouse, but the rest all were released usually not too worse for the wear. Had I known how to catch them well enough at the time, I proabably wouldn't have bothered snagging.

As stated above needless killing like this has little to no impact on the population, but is a waste none the less. Just as bad is that it creates a stench that can ruin a day fishing for lots of people in a busy location and gives all angers a bad name.

When people ask me what I'm fishing for and I say carp, I often get a comment about "trash fish". I make it a point to ask them why they think that. Most say it's because you can't eat them. That's when I ask what most bass fishermen do with the bass they catch. Of course the people usually respond that they let them go. My next question is always then if you're not eating them how is one fish better than another that get's bigger and fights better.

I think making people think about things like that is a step in the right direction. With a slow, steady hand we can all make progress, but it will take time to get carp to the point where people aren't as influenced by the fact that uncle Joe told 'em that "them carps is bad fishes." I think at least in the near future, the best we can hope for as far as the general fishing population's view on carp is moving from hatred to indifference.

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Guest Windknot

I was fishing in one of my usual spots in an suburban area west of Detroit when an older woman walked by and asked what I was fishing for. I told her carp and she was surprised but was not condescending. I hooked one shortly before she walked by me and the way home and she stopped to watch. She expressed admiration for the way the carp was fighting and by her responses I knew she was a fisherwoman. When I eventually landed it she took a picture with her phone to show her husband. I may have created a convert!!

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Guest Lee Baermann

Jon, I get the same response when I tell people I fish for carp. I even get it from fly fisherman who only fish for trout and would never think of fishing for carp. They always get the same answer from me, when was the last time you caught a fresh water fish in the double digits?

What none fly fisherman don't understand is the joy we get from fooling any species with a fly. Getting a fish to eat something that in a lot of cases doesn't even look like anything but the fish still eats it is very rewarding, more so if you tied it yourself.

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Guest Jon Rasmussen
Jon, I get the same response when I tell people I fish for carp. I even get it from fly fisherman who only fish for trout and would never think of fishing for carp. They always get the same answer from me, when was the last time you caught a fresh water fish in the double digits?

What none fly fisherman don't understand is the joy we get from fooling any species with a fly. Getting a fish to eat something that in a lot of cases doesn't even look like anything but the fish still eats it is very rewarding, more so if you tied it yourself.

I too often mention, when I'm having a good day, that nobody else on the lake is catching 20 pounders or landing 100+ pounds of fish in a morning. I like to point out the guy in the $30K boat that is catching maybe ten 2-4 pound bass on a good day and letting them go while I'm catching more with $3K of really nice tackle and that it can be done with $300 of good tackle that most people already have.

Carp is one fish I have yet to catch on the flyrod. I've had a few follows, but no takes and haven't put much time into it though. One day ...

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Guest phonebush

Lee, All,

I can't express strongly enough my feelings on getting these guys (kids) onto the working end of a fishing rod early. I've had more success teaching kids than I have ever had teaching adults about the importants of good stewardship.

I implore each of us, as experienced fishermen, to work as many kids fishing derbys as you can possibly fit into your schedule. I have yet to run into a DNR that won't jump at the chance to help out if you want to set one up yourself. Two guys and 8 -10 kids, especially suburan city kids, is worth 10,000 written words. Schools, civic centers and churches will give you all the "soap box" listeners you want.

Phone

Just finished a 25 - 30 kid DNR sponsored event Monday, Labor Day. Do you have any idea what they can do to the line on seven Zebco 33. I'll be a month just cutting the line out and replacing it. This was in addition to the 15 willow poles I had my grandson cut for me earlier in the month. (They are now in the park firewood pile)>

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Guest Lee Baermann

This was posted on Dan Blanton's site and the guy was not happy. Not a good showing for us carp fisherman.

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Clay,

OHH,Ohh,ohh ! You're very sneeky but accidently slipped in the OPERATIVE word WIS.

I thought you were also in Calif. I've never seen a state with a more - - - hummm, - - - how can I say this - - - - more unusual position on carp than WI state. Many fishermen fish for carp in WI. WI is also ONE state that has carp populations that are WAY out of balance. Wherever there are carp in WI you really REALLY have carp. Lots and lots of little bitty carp.

A real issue in WI. What would you have them do? Mind you, I certainly not in favor of what is shown in your picture - it's discusting.

Phone

The W state doesnt like small mouth bass either, they are regularly killed if caught in trout streams. Besides whats more fun than deep jigg'n for walleys constantly :rolleyes: , most of em up there fish for walleys all the time cause they taste good eh.

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The W state doesnt like small mouth bass either, they are regularly killed if caught in trout streams. Besides whats more fun than deep jigg'n for walleys constantly :rolleyes: , most of em up there fish for walleys all the time cause they taste good eh.

In my group of friends small mouth are highly sought after. At this year's annual show by the Federation of Fly Fishers there was a nice presentation given specifically on small mouth bass. I have never encountered anyone who was against small mouth. In any population there are bound to be those that are not in the norm on the bell curve so some individual expressing that opinion wouldn't surprise me. Yes, we love our walleyes and they DO taste great.

One of the strangest ones are those that hate brown trout and believe that they should be removed from brook trout water. In Wisconsin brook trout are native but browns are an invasive species to some. Personally love the brown trout.

I think that this thread has whown that some people want to impliment their OWN vision of a wildlife program on the rest of us, regardless of the laws that exist. Whether it is a certain salt water species or a fresh water species, in my area the most misunderstood species is our common carp.

Edited by Clay34

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Guest Windknot

Many people also will kill the bowfin here in Michigan believing it to be a "trash fish" in waters it has existed in longer than most of the other species. The thinking degenerates into believing that the "sportfish" cannot co-exist with the bowfin even though they have evolved together over thousands of years. I love catching fish and really have trouble with understanding the need to prioritize one species over another except when invasive species threaten native species and evidence is supported with scientific studies.

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In my group of friends small mouth are highly sought after. At this year's annual show by the Federation of Fly Fishers there was a nice presentation given specifically on small mouth bass. I have never encountered anyone who was against small mouth. In any population there are bound to be those that are not in the norm on the bell curve so some individual expressing that opinion wouldn't surprise me. Yes, we love our walleyes and they DO taste great.

One of the strangest ones are those that hate brown trout and believe that they should be removed from brook trout water. In Wisconsin brook trout are native but browns are an invasive species to some. Personally love the brown trout.

I think that this thread has whown that some people want to impliment their OWN vision of a wildlife program on the rest of us, regardless of the laws that exist. Whether it is a certain salt water species or a fresh water species, in my area the most misunderstood species is our common carp.

Point taken Clay, I forgot about the Brown trout hate..I havnt been trout fish'n in years. I thought you guys were a shoe in for the next world record brown http://www.moldychum.com/home-old/2009/9/1...rown-trout.html they were always fun up in the tribs.

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Then I read about the sport boats catching bonita and to my knowledge, they are not all that good to eat. But there they are on the deck holding bloody fish....................

I just hate to see fish wasted as in gaffed just for a picture as proof you caught it. Sorry for the rant but I don't see many, if at all, fly guys doing this...........

Lee,

Just one note for you...if treated well (bled, kept cool), bonito can be an excellent eating fish.

Best,

Jason

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Guest Lee Baermann
Lee,

Just one note for you...if treated well (bled, kept cool), bonito can be an excellent eating fish.

Best,

Jason

Good to know but don't most sport boats, at least the ones I've been on, just dump your catch in a burlap bag with your number above it?

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