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Carp and 50 degrees FFF DON'T GO!


Guest phonebush

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Guest phonebush

All,

For sure this belongs in "beginning carping"

I have been making this annual post, or one similar since at least the first FFF in 2003.

CARP DO NOT FEED IN WATER BELOW 50° - NOPE!

And, I might add what they do ingest they do not digest. At 50 or below carp digestive system is between 5 and 10% efficient. “Feeding” - the act of consuming the food supply for nourishment successfully enough to sustain life.

Carp have huge livers. They can sustain life in water below 50 for up to seven months. To put it simply energy is stored in two ways in their body - fat and carbohydrates. Glucose and proteins are re-converted into in glycogen that is stored primarily in the liver (in carp) and skeletal muscle for immediate energy when it is reconverted to glucose for utilization. Fat is stored as fat. Excessive carbohydrate is converted into fat.

Carp will, instinctively ingest substances. You may, only because you have a line in the water, catch a carp. It will not be feeding. The fact a carp takes your hook has little to do with your effort. Unless you are river fishing the coldest any water you will be able to find is 39 degrees on the bottom – none colder. I firmly believe a lot of guys measure the air temperature as the water temperature. It is really hard to consistently find water below 50 in the lower 48 states, at least below the 40th parallel.

FFF is a joke you blithering idiots!

Phone

Ohh, since the late 1990’s I have offered to let this fact lie. All someone has to do is open a carp and tell me there are contents – any contents in the gut. I will take your word as a gentleman. In the eight years I’ve made this offer NO ONE has been able to find a carp caught in water below 50 with anything in its gut.

Jerome,

Sign me up again this year will you? I still don't have a camera and will probably fish alone. I'm sure, as in the past, you will take my word for my success.

Phone

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Jerome,

Sign me up again this year will you? I still don't have a camera and will probably fish alone. I'm sure, as in the past, you will take my word for my success.

Phone

I always take your word. With a grain of salt. And salt stimulates appetite. Even in the winter. :rolleyes:

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Just to add to "The Phone FFF-carp-gate".... A quote from the FFF 2007 results announcement:

Total number of participants: 148, including 14 juniors.

States with active participants: 20 in the US, and one in Mexico!

Total number of carp: at least 280... For a little more than 3000 pounds of carp.

50 degrees F or less: 229 carp, more than 2500 pounds, 54 participants caught at least one (including the smallest and largest). Of course, they were all "snagged" in the mouth, right, Phone?

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Brid you need to fix your thermometer the lake is colder than 50 and I am still catching carp. I think we need to fish the lake this week and check your thermometer.

Jeff

Well Bill -- at least you are consistent -- if slightly wrong occasionally :rolleyes: Enjoy your FFF :yourock:

Tight Lines,

Brid.

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Brid you need to fix your thermometer the lake is colder than 50 and I am still catching carp. I think we need to fish the lake this week and check your thermometer.

Jeff

Jeff - my thermometers are just fine!! It's Phone that has the 'minus 50 blues'!! :rolleyes: I've got to get a pretty important plumbing job done on the caravan, and - once it's done would love to come and wet a line. :yourock:

Cheers,

Brid.

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All,

For sure this belongs in "beginning carping"

I have been making this annual post, or one similar since at least the first FFF in 2003.

CARP DO NOT FEED IN WATER BELOW 50° - NOPE!

And, I might add what they do ingest they do not digest. At 50 or below carp digestive system is between 5 and 10% efficient. “Feeding” - the act of consuming the food supply for nourishment successfully enough to sustain life.

Carp have huge livers. They can sustain life in water below 50 for up to seven months. To put it simply energy is stored in two ways in their body - fat and carbohydrates. Glucose and proteins are re-converted into in glycogen that is stored primarily in the liver (in carp) and skeletal muscle for immediate energy when it is reconverted to glucose for utilization. Fat is stored as fat. Excessive carbohydrate is converted into fat.

Carp will, instinctively ingest substances. You may, only because you have a line in the water, catch a carp. It will not be feeding. The fact a carp takes your hook has little to do with your effort. Unless you are river fishing the coldest any water you will be able to find is 39 degrees on the bottom – none colder. I firmly believe a lot of guys measure the air temperature as the water temperature. It is really hard to consistently find water below 50 in the lower 48 states, at least below the 40th parallel.

FFF is a joke you blithering idiots!

Phone

Ohh, since the late 1990’s I have offered to let this fact lie. All someone has to do is open a carp and tell me there are contents – any contents in the gut. I will take your word as a gentleman. In the eight years I’ve made this offer NO ONE has been able to find a carp caught in water below 50 with anything in its gut.

Jerome,

Sign me up again this year will you? I still don't have a camera and will probably fish alone. I'm sure, as in the past, you will take my word for my success.

Phone

Any kind of metabolic activity will raise the body temperature of any animal including those that are cold blooded. In carp this is compounded by the fact that they do not hold dormant on the bottom. Flathead catfish stop moving almost completely, but underwater video of carp shows them moving around under the ice. Movement increases the metabolic rate and thus the animal’s internal temperature. Heat is always given off during metabolic activity. Since carp group together tightly, this also increases the temperature of each individual fish, and the water surrounding these animals. This is evident by weak spots associated in ice where carp tend to venture near the surface. Also, keep in mind that this fish species has genes that allow it to adapt to extreme temperature changes. Obviously, if you put a strain of carp from Texas in a lake in North Dakota the fish are probably going to die in the winter; although, some will not because they carry the gene to survive colder water temperatures. You take a fish that has been programmed to survive in the mountains of China, breed it in captivity in Europe for 3,000 years, breed it across the seas in North America for another couple of hundred years, and subject it to the most drastic environmental changes possible over the last 100 years, and yet it still prospers in just about every body of water you can imagine. The bottom line is that the fish has developed ways of coping with temperature changes. Yes, the metabolic activity has slowed down considerably, but that does not keep the fish from feeding and digesting food. Enzymes help lower the temperature necessary for food digestion, close contact with other fish, movement, and burning of ATP and releasing of heat all play a part in keep this animal from shutting down. If you think about it logically, carp are better insulated than many other fish species, yet you can still catch crappie, walleye, and others through the ice. Ask Jim Moyer what is the best water temperature to catch a large blue catfish, and he will tell you 34 degrees Fahrenheit. Furthermore, it all depends on the winters of where you live. If you live in the tropic belt, then perhaps 50 degrees will shut down the animal’s digestive system because of shock. If you live in New York or Canada, the fish may not stop eating until it is frozen in a chunk of ice. Feeding slows and digestion slows rather it is too cold or too hot, but shutting down completely means that death is not far off.

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Guest phonebush

Wels,

I disagree nearly 100% with most of what you say in this post. I do agree when you say, "but shutting down completely means that death is not far off." "Not far off" for carp is about 7 months if they are healthy and fat going into a cold water condition. Where only cold water exists year around carp are absent from the ecosystem.

Phone

I do believe "strain adaptibility" may also be possible (+ or - 3 or 4 degrees) after umpteen generations. Certainly Northern fish may have adapted slightly so North to South may have some merit. The other way around, South to North is just speculation. You ever see or read of this? I mean where fish from the South (of anywhere, i.e. Europe, UK) have been moved to Northern water where the base temperature is 3 or 4 degrees from 50 degrees year around.

In any case a successful spawn requires "SOME" (you tell me what) temperature. How does that happen?

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Phone might be right....... here is a scientific study which backs what Phone says. Basically it says lower limit for feeding in common carp is 10.1*c ???

Link http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/W5268E/W5268E09.htm

Table A3.1 Best-fit growth parameters estimated for four fish species.

Parameter Nile tilapia Tambaqui Pacu Common carp

Anabolism Parameters

Efficiency of assimilation

0.7108 0.6695 0.7719 0.7129

Anabolism exponent (m)

0.6277 0.6855 0.7154 0.6722

Food consumption coefficient (h)

0.4768 0.2863 0.2415 0.3282

Catabolism Parameters

Feeding catabolism coefficient (a)

0.0559 0.1057 0.0529 0.0786

Catabolism exponent (n)

0.8373 0.5336 0.53 0.5166

Min. catabolism coefficient (kmin)

0.0104 0.0146 0.0094 0.0104

Temperature parameter (s)

0.0288 0.0110 0.0290 0.0027

Temperature Scalars

Minimum (Tmin)

18.7 14.4 17.5 10.1

Maximum (Tmax)

39.7 38.6 31.4 36.2

Optimum (Topt)

32.4 29.0 28.1 30.6

Temperature

Food consumption tends to increase with temperature (T) from a lower limit below which fish will not feed (Tmin) until the optimum temperature (Topt) for the given fish species is reached; beyond Topt, consumption decreases rapidly to zero until an upper limit (Tmax) is reached, above which fish will not feed (Brett et al., 1969). Cuenco et al. (1985) used a triangular function to describe this relationship. However, many fish species, such as tilapias (Caulton, 1978), tend to have a maximum food consumption rate within a temperature range rather than at a single optimum temperature. Therefore the dimensionless function used by Svirezhev et al. (1984), which is rather flat around a known optimal temperature, is more appropriate for describing the effects of temperature on food intake, and therefore anabolism. This function is as follows:

τ = exp{-4.6 [(Topt - T)/(Topt - Tmin)]4}, if T < Topt (A3.5)

exp{-4.6 [(T - Topt)/(Tmax - Topt)]4}, if T ≥ Topt

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Guest phonebush

Carpsava,

You don't have to encourage me (insert smiley face). When I made this statement, LONG, LONG AGO, I didn't know I was going to kick up such a storm among carp fishermen. The biology has long been known. The number "50" was selected because it is "close" to the "right" number and an easy number to remember. Actually, I kinda believe, - somehow, - although I don't exactly know how, Northern carp are probably nearer 47 ish. Southern carp are nearer 52 ish, other factors should be considered.

Of less importance is this. Carp have a diminishing capability of digesting food items as the water cools or super heats. At 50 (+ or - a few) what they do consume they can digest between 5 and 7%. Even if they injest non-stop that is Not near enough to sustain life. In the cold well oxygenated water carp respairations can be as few as 5 - 7 per minute and in extreme conditions 3 per minute. I think it is wise to remember the coldest any lake can get is 39 degrees. Often the warm(er) water is trapped between the 39 and the ice.

Fortunately, what all good, and some not so good, carp anglers know is that carp can be encouraged to "injest" food objects without being able to "feed" (sustain life). The real KEY to this discussion is not whether carp feed or not - I am thouroughly convinced of this answer is no as it is biologically impossible. The question for debate is whether introduction of "materials" into a swim can increase the probability a carp will/would injest at a heightened pace or with increased interest? I think not - but I may be wrong. I did not do "a lot of stuff" with "baiting" as an incentive in those early years.

I can tell you this. Not scientific, just an observation, I've watched carp clean up 50 bushels of corn by injesting it in one place and depositing it in a granary not two far away. The corn was, from an observable and feel point of view, 100% unchanged by passing through the gut. I don't know why, carp are certainly not especially smart, but the granary was near an area the warmed quickly in full sunlight. I think the depository location was simply an accident of chance. I'd guess Brid would think otherwise.

Phone

I've re-read your post, I can't understand but maybe 1% of the gobblydegook numbers - but I do know carp don't feed in water below 50F.

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If that is what the science says, then phone just might be right.

I normally catch more carp during the summer months, but we sure caught a lot of carp during the spring up at Two Rivers in April. I took the water temperature and it was at 45 degrees. But, I did notice the fish were a lot more sluggish compared to how well they fought almost two months later.

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Guest phonebush

Wels,

Here's were I am weak.

I don't know if the introduction of "groundbait, chum, baiting, packbait, etc. - whatever you want to call it - stimulates the natural instinct to forage - even in cold water.

You guys say yes and have the catch results to prove your point. OTOH I have the results of thousands of autopsies on carp from cold water - all with an empty gut.

We both know you can catch carp in water below 50 degrees. The question is "are you to rousing to action or encouraging" some response that improves your random chance of catching carp in these waters??

I used to say NO WAY - - - I am not so sure anymore? I don't know what the "test" would be other than the experience of a group like CAG. I mean there is no "side by side" or "blind study" that would give us the answer. At least not one that I can come up with. It would be nearly impossible to MEASURE the "before and after" change in metabolism in a natural setting.

Phone

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Bill -- from post #20 "I'd guess Brid would think otherwise". Well - without bad retorts - or appearing a 'zelot' (sp should be zealot) from another post you had a jab at me, I'm quite happy catching Carp in sub 50's temps, and -- at least I'm out doing it instead of just 'nit picking' :rolleyes:

Most folks that have current cold water Carping knowledge seem pretty happy not just sitting at home getting chronic 'cabin fever' :yourock:

It might be that during all your years (many years ago) of slicing Carp open, you were doing it in rather impoverished (food wise) waters, where the Carp were surviving off their fat reserves?

What ever the facts were then -- it's a very long time ago, and in the natural progression of a species - the advent of human intervention ie. people throwing bait at them on a very regular basis these days, might well have a huge bearing on their winter feeding habits?

Darwin's Origin Of Species had some pretty cool ideas and findings, and left a fair bit of 'latitude' for expansion & progression. Let's just hope there might be a similar 'flexibility' in the Carping fraternity :o

Cheers,

Brid.

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Guest phonebush

Brid,

That's not a jab, that's a compliment to your convictions that carp are smart. I think you really believe that. It's OK with me if you think they are smart. I catch plenty of heat because I say (know) they are stupid. I said it was an "accident" they deposited food in a granary location that would make it more usable sooner. I just bet if you saw them doing that, depositing food in a granary, you would say carp are pretty smart to be able to do that.

Suppose, for you, I conceed I was catching "impoverished" fish. How do you account for their digestive capabilities?

Once again, the "difficult issue" is whether carp will instinctively risk death by increasing it's activity (metabolism) with the artifical introduction of consumable matter by anglers.

Are you really killing carp by "chumming" in cold water by inducing the un-natural use of stored energy they cannot replace until spring?? I think you probably are. It's OK we have plenty of carp.

Phone

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Phone :rolleyes:

I get a kick from some of your scientific and knowledgeable replies. I too subscribe to the theory, "forget carp fishing below 50f" in lakes. However, I'm not entirely convinced it applies in some rivers. On a snow-melt river in California, I've caught carp at least 3 times down to 43f, once on a CAG FFF, documented at 45f. Ironically these fish have mostly been around high teens to 25 lbs.

I theorize, during winter rivers are often swollen and fish might need to replace lost energy occasionally. Plus, because temps in running water are mainly constant throughout, their feeding areas are open to them. Not so in lakes, due to stratification.

Any thoughts on this?

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