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elcapitanmas

mirror or leather?

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I've caught a few fish from my local lake in the past few years that I had considered to be mirror carp, but in watching some recent videos I'm not really sure. Is there a mix between mirrors and leathers? Is there a reason one mirror looks different than another? Most if not all of these fish have NO scales other than a line down the top, and most of the bodies have "splotches" of skin.

post-3807-1280147805.jpg

post-3807-1280147857.jpg

Edited by elcapitanmas

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they are mirrors. Leathers have absolutely no scales

Correct, and leathers over here are very, very rare. Seems like only 1 or 2 have been caught by members, but I could be wrong. One of those may have even been a leather koi, but again I am not sure.

Maybe someone can weigh in on us leathers and who has caught them.

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Guest phonebush

elcap,

There are two kinds of mirror. "Linier/linear" or "irregular". They are nearly as different from each other as commons are from mirrors. (Linear mirrors are genetically dominate over irregular mirrors).

Linier/linear means exactly what is sounds like. The scales will be in the shape of a single or multiple straight lines. Linear (the more common spelling is linear) mirror carp can also have an odd scale or two but mostly they are arranged in a straight line.

Irregular means that also. Usually fewer and larger irregularly shaped scales.

Leather. Usually scaleless. I have not seen but maybe one or two in my life (and that's a slim maybe). I don't think they occur often in the gene pool here in the midwest. I am not going to disagree with Scott. Just from the book. Although carp can be genetic "leather" they can have one, two or more large scales. I assure you in the US among CAG anglers, if it has scales (EVEN ONE) it will be called a mirror. I doubt we even care, and the genetic DNA testing would cost a bizillion.

So, there are linear mirror; irregular mirror; leather, all genetic variations of common carp. (I suppose there are variations of linear/irregular breeds although leathers are like mules).

Then there are KOI - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ?

Phone

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Linier/linear means exactly what is sounds like. The scales will be in the shape of a single or multiple straight lines. Linear (the more common spelling is linear) mirror carp can also have an odd scale or two but mostly they are arranged in a straight line.

The carp as my avatar is a linear mirror carp :)

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I have caught Linear Mirrors and Partially Scaled Mirrors (Irregular). I have also caught Fully Scaled Mirrors. Common Carp are fully scaled; the difference is that the scales on a Mirror are twice as big. A few of the Partially Scaled Mirrors I have caught have had only 8 or 10 scales on each side but I have yet to see a Leather Carp. I would love to catch one. A big, fat one of course.

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Since we are talking about mirrors, I had a question. The round football looking mirror carps are called Israeli carp? Is that correct?

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Since we are talking about mirrors, I had a question. The round football looking mirror carps are called Israeli carp? Is that correct?

Nope. They are still mirrors, just a different body type. (an ectomorph??)

Not sure how to clearly define what an Israeli carp is, but I believe they are generally smaller in size and always fully scaled.

Anybody else feel free to chime in and correct me/make additions, etc......

EDIT: replace ectomorph with endomorph

Edited by KingKool

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Since we are talking about mirrors, I had a question. The round football looking mirror carps are called Israeli carp? Is that correct?

Yes, the football shape is a characeristic of israeli carp, and maybe some other strains. Possibly dictated by environment.

Nope. They are still mirrors, just a different body type. (an ectomorph??)

Not sure how to clearly define what an Israeli carp is, but I believe they are generally smaller in size and always fully scaled.

Anybody else feel free to chime in and correct me/make additions, etc......

Israeli carp are not fully scaled and are actually very devoid of scales from my understanding. Many say they are smaller, I'm quite certain they can obtain higher weights, but have no evidence yet to support the theory besides TNs common record of 53 was listed as an israeli for years, and the water it came from was stocked with them.

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To my knowledge israeli carp are quicker growing, often introduced to waters by released minnows, and feed heavily on some grasses prompting lake management to introduce them to some lakes.

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Yes, the football shape is a characeristic of israeli carp, and maybe some other strains. Possibly dictated by environment.

Israeli carp are not fully scaled and are actually very devoid of scales from my understanding. Many say they are smaller, I'm quite certain they can obtain higher weights, but have no evidence yet to support the theory besides TNs common record of 53 was listed as an israeli for years, and the water it came from was stocked with them.

Maybe I was thinking of Crucian Carp?

Thanks MCW.

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Guest Noknot

The Carp pictured, are "scatter scaled" Mirror Carp, Linear Mirrors have a full line of scales running along the lateral line (Zip linear) and then you have fully scaled Mirrors which have irregular sized and shaped scales.

A Leather Carp Is not a scale less Mirror Carp as their genetics are different.

Common traits in Leather Carp are small pectoral fins and a small rounded tail, also a Leather Carp may have a few scales along the dorsal fin or around the wrist of the tail.

A prime example of a Leather Carp, the famous "Heather" caught by Gaz Fareham:

heather.jpg

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Good capture.

U mad I'm a meso??

Nope. Us Endo's will fare far better when the Apocalypse hits.

FYI - I think I'm a Meso that wants to be an Endo - very borderline...........

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Guest GARP
The Carp pictured, are "scatter scaled" Mirror Carp, Linear Mirrors have a full line of scales running along the lateral line (Zip linear) and then you have fully scaled Mirrors which have irregular sized and shaped scales.

A Leather Carp Is not a scale less Mirror Carp as their genetics are different.

Common traits in Leather Carp are small pectoral fins and a small rounded tail, also a Leather Carp may have a few scales along the dorsal fin or around the wrist of the tail.

A prime example of a Leather Carp, the famous "Heather" caught by Gaz Fareham:

heather.jpg

Every picture I've seen of Gaz he was wearing a hat like that - recently saw a pic of him without hat - could hardly recognize him and also now know why he likes the hats :)

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Israeli carp are not fully scaled and are actually very devoid of scales from my understanding.

hmmmmm, how about this one then :)

2610hq-1.jpg

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hmmmmm, how about this one then :D

2610hq-1.jpg

My understanding can be a little off from time to time lol. Beautiful fish, and has the israeli look. I was responding to a post calling them all fully scaled and I in turn erred in the other direction :)

So I guess you get a mixed bag of them.

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Guest phonebush

Scott,

I think your rather odd, but cool, fish is a genetic mix of the UK guppy and our more predominante North American carp.

IMO common carp can "throw" body shape and scale patterns pretty easily in genetic terms. I think carp, at the genetic level, are like dogs. I believe, although I certainly don't know, this is one of the issues confronting England with unregistered imported carp. They, the English, would like to protect a particular strain that has a solid genetic history. We, North America, mix and match our carp without any care. We do so to the extent I really think "muddlers" are genetic "errors" if error is the right word rather than damaged (or any other explaination).

The "Israeli" carp I've seen (one particular ditch in Tempe AZ) are smaller scaled (perhaps 70 scales in length rather than the usual 64 for a common) and are more silver in color. They are (were) all shaped like our NA commons and in no way resembled the "guppy" fish or in no way had the beautiful pinkish hew in the body (belly) color. Reportedly, (from memory and a LONG time ago) the Israeli carp were created by Israel and grown in India for food fish. They do have a better weight to feed gain potential. They supposedly reach their "market size" in 3 years.

All,

I too have a question.

Do leather carp have a distinguishing difference in the texture of their skin (since they have few or no scales)? Other than genetic testing can they truly be "identified"?

Phone

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Guest edward

I'm not sure what 'israeli' carp means.

I caught only one like this in my life, and DNR in Sterling IL. called it 'israeli'.

But, I wasn't impressed by DNRs expertise so I am doubtful.

here's a foto. This was small, under 1 lb.

post-5426-1280246640.jpg

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Guest phonebush

edward,

The fish in the photo would certainly pass for an Israeli carp. Probably the guys in Ohio have the best chance of identifying Israeli carp. I haven't fish Ohio for a while but 15 - 20 years ago almost every bait shop bought and sold Israeli carp as catfish bait. The must have had a single supplier or something. But from CVG to CLE all the live catfish bait "carp" were Israeli carp. The Ohio Valley guys will chime in if that is still true.

For sure, yours is an odd fish - and - may indeed be an Israeli, usually they are more uniformly patterened as linear carp with small(er) more silver scales.

Phone

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Guest SWMO
they are mirrors. Leathers have absolutely no scales

While they may have changed definitions, the old US definition of a leather was a scattering of over sized scales and no scales below the lateral line.

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