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Underwater Video - Paylaking Rigs & Pack


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First off Jerome and Iain thank you and a Merry Christmas to ya both . With the wooden bead seems they're not reconizeing as food source and it's being rejected as debris , remember carp take in more inedible a day than edible . Could be making a strong point to use real food source items . Wonder if you would get the same results with a puff or a longer leader . Seems an awful lot of blowbacks . What amazed me was the amount of fish on the bait yet so few runs . Fish seemed to take items randomly bait or debris , I tend to wonder if the proper flavor of hook bait would have had them more focused . Just my thoughts , anyway thank you again keep 'em commin . :yourock:

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With a wooden bead like that you might as well not used a hook. Never used a bead of any size of make. They suck. Thanks for showing what no paylaker I know of uses. Trying to be kind here since your showing the world what "" paylakers use "".

Regards

Tom.

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The mono straightening out really surprised me. What pound test was it and was there current in the water at all or was it on a lake? Also I noticed the carp mouth the bait and not so much sucking and spitting out so that was interesting as well. Thanks for the video work.

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Tom - I'm still a 'young' apprentice as far as pack bait is concerned and have yet to get any kind of handle on 'puffology'. I've messed around a bit and for the most part have struggled with the damn things. I personally found the wooden bead amazingly effective over the past season. If the fish are on the pack then it basically becomes a "haul fest" and the bead saves lot of time and messing around. You can even 'flavor' them but for the most part I've not found it necessary. If they 'suck' in your book that's fine and hopefully this coming season I can learn more about puffs and how to use them to better effect.

Carpinken - personally I think long leaders (more than 3-5") allow many more opportunities for the carp to reject the bait. Shorter hook lengths will get the fish 'on the lead' much more quickly. Next time I'll even try some heavier leads than the 2oz in the video so they can't shake the hook loose.

As for 'puffs' who knows? Artificial baits of almost any kind (boilies , corn etc) are remarkably effective and provided the fish is picking them up (intentionally or otherwise) then all that is left is to make the rig work. The visual feeders certainly picked up the bead on several occasions and I think if I had been tight lined to the lead then you'd see a dramatic increase in hook-ups. That's been my experience when fishing this set up over the past season but then I've not had a video camera to tell me otherwise!

There are a couple of issues I learned from Jerome when shooting this video...

#1 In this instance we had to drop the bait down vertically to see the bait in front of the camera. This in my mind had a significant impact on the effectiveness of certain rigs. I can't wait to go back and learn more about fine tuning the bead on the hair... I know it works and have caught plenty of fish on it over the years. I think I know the problem in this instance and it will be interesting to see if I'm proved right... or wrong!

#2 Almost every video I've seen of carp feeding has shown just how many fish most of us are missing. This is especially true of the majority of fish that are just 'randomly' grazing & sucking up material. Visual feeders that go straight to the bait usually give much more opportunity for bite detection as well as self hooking (then appear to be moving more quickly, tip-up with the bait in their mouths so lifting the lead etc). We all love to delude ourselves on the effectiveness of certain rigs but seeing it live in front of you is horribly humbling!

I can't wait to get another opportunity to shoot some more footage with Jerome - my note book now has several pages of things to try out next time!

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Thanks for the videos, the wood bead has to go, use a puff and shorten up the leader and you will catch moor fish.

Also try fluorocarbon leaders And egg sinkers are the way to go ;) .

I have been trained by MR Big :D

Edited by robm1093
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Leving the main line loose will make this method ineffective however we can still see how the carp are attracted to the pack and how they react to it.

Edited by robm1093
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I have used wide gap Gammagatsu's but I straightened out the eye first. The turned out eye , has a negative effect on hook ups. Tied with 17 lb. Berkley XL.

post-2981-0-49839600-1324786689_thumb.jp

Now this would pass for a paylake hook and leader. Double 17lb test makes it almost imposible to spit out. The length is also in the range of OK. Shorter in cold water, longer in warm water. Between 3 and 6 inches is the norm depending on what your trying to do.

A tight line with a locked down reel is the other 50% of the method. Its all or noon/none m8's. If ya'll Brits are having an increase in your catch rate with the baits and rigs shown in the vidio, thats OK, but a true paylake rig with bait would out catch ya'll 10 to one. No brag, just plain fact.

Nice fictional vidio though. I know a lot of time and effort went into it. Doesn't make it right though.

Regards

Tom. ;)

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As usual another great video. I do though wonder if the hook up rate would have been better if the hook had something edible on it like sweet corn or a puff?

I am sure this would have been better indeed, but it is pretty clear that this type of rig suffers from a major mechanical problem (and I don't think that tightening the main line would solve it, it might actually make it worse - although I am speculating here). Still, when carp are excited enough, everything can work if you wait a few minutes and are blissfully aware of all the misses happening before you get lucky! This is why Tom is so confused between cause and effect... Which in all fairness, isn't obvious at all to figure out when you just fish in regular conditions. The only sure thing is how ignorant we collectively are (me first)! rolleyes.gif

Iain S, I'd love to do more experiments with you. The water will probably freeze soon, but mid February, right when it starts thawing, is where the visibility is the best. Tom, I would happily extend the invitation to you if you would dare to face harsh reality... Just... Don't call me a Brit, will you? And merry Christmas to you too! laugh.gif

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Double 17lb test makes it almost imposible to spit out.

Here's my two cents. I really don't know much about pack baits but I agree with Tom that the bait used in the first video is far from breaking properly. Doesn't matter if it's pack or method, if it doesn't break it ain't any good. And the wooden beat is not something I would use either. However, if anyone really believes there's something even close to a rig that's near impossible to spit out you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

I strongly suspect that the whole packbait system (as well as any other small particle approach) enhances the problem. By using such small particles in your bait you're stimulating the "blind" suck and blow type of feeding, automatically leading to an increase in rigs being spat out. There's no fool proof rig here, just accept that it's part of the system. By all means, send Jerome your fool proof rigs or better yet go up there with a proper packbait as well. I'm sure he'd be up for another filming session.

If you'd bait up for a few days with large particles, better yet proper size boilies, spread out over a LARGE area, you will probably start to notice a different feeding pattern. More like the incidental carp going, on sight, straight for the pick up. In my opinion this leads to more effective hook ups. Not because the rig is more effective, but because the carp are feeding differently.

Worth a filming session perhaps?

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Here's my two cents. I really don't know much about pack baits but I agree with Tom that the bait used in the first video is far from breaking properly. Doesn't matter if it's pack or method, if it doesn't break it ain't any good. And the wooden beat is not something I would use either. However, if anyone really believes there's something even close to a rig that's near impossible to spit out you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

I strongly suspect that the whole packbait system (as well as any other small particle approach) enhances the problem. By using such small particles in your bait you're stimulating the "blind" suck and blow type of feeding, automatically leading to an increase in rigs being spat out. There's no fool proof rig here, just accept that it's part of the system. By all means, send Jerome your fool proof rigs or better yet go up there with a proper packbait as well. I'm sure he'd be up for another filming session.

If you'd bait up for a few days with large particles, better yet proper size boilies, spread out over a LARGE area, you will probably start to notice a different feeding pattern. More like the incidental carp going, on sight, straight for the pick up. In my opinion this leads to more effective hook ups. Not because the rig is more effective, but because the carp are feeding differently.

This I agree 100% with.

I see more "line bumps" (spit outs?) when using Pack vs Corn or boilies on a "stringer" (See here )

I'll use pack just to get started and get some attractant in the area.

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If you'd bait up for a few days with large particles, better yet proper size boilies, spread out over a LARGE area, you will probably start to notice a different feeding pattern. More like the incidental carp going, on sight, straight for the pick up. In my opinion this leads to more effective hook ups. Not because the rig is more effective, but because the carp are feeding differently.

Worth a filming session perhaps?

Yes, I totally agree on the two types of feeding pattern. And yes, rigs (any type of rig!) work much better when the fish go at them by moving fast (either because they compete with others, or because they go at it by sight from some distance). This isn't necessary improving the catch rate compared to method/pack (cf. fish are dispersed or grouped), but this is certainly improving the hook-up when a fish shows up.

I just don't quite know how to capture the experiment you suggested on video though. With the camera, we can only see a couple of feet from a fixed position along the wall, and record a couple of hours, that's all I can do... There are videos on YouTube recorded by European divers clearly showing what you explain though.

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Yes, I totally agree on the two types of feeding pattern. And yes, rigs (any type of rig!) work much better when the fish go at them by moving fast (either because they compete with others, or because they go at it by sight from some distance). This isn't necessary improving the catch rate compared to method/pack (cf. fish are dispersed or grouped), but this is certainly improving the hook-up when a fish shows up.

I just don't quite know how to capture the experiment you suggested on video though. With the camera, we can only see a couple of feet from a fixed position along the wall, and record a couple of hours, that's all I can do... There are videos on YouTube recorded by European divers clearly showing what you explain though.

I think it's not so hard to film actually. Just bait up for a few days a very wide area, with your filming location being part of that wider area. Drop your rig with a single boilie on the hair and a PVA with a few extra boilies right in front of the camera. Throw one or two handfuls of additional boilies loosely on top and off you go. That's pretty much how I fish most of the time.

The fish will be on your hookboilie in no time. ;)

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I think it's not so hard to film actually. Just bait up for a few days a very wide area, with your filming location being part of that wider area. Drop your rig with a single boilie on the hair and a PVA with a few extra boilies right in front of the camera. Throw one or two handfuls of additional boilies loosely on top and off you go. That's pretty much how I fish most of the time.

The fish will be on your hookboilie in no time.

Yes, sure... This is the "in no time" part of it which is a bit tricky though... To assemble a decent video, I need more footage than a single fish passing by every 15 or 20 minutes... Even if each fish results on a straight take... rolleyes.gif

But, hey, if you want to ship me 10 kilos of small boilies, maybe one day, I'll do your experiment... And who knows, maybe I'll even catch a 40 pounder, that would be a change from the usual 4-15 pound fish I get out of there! wink.gif

Ok, in all seriousness, I think your point has been already shown pretty clearly. Between the diver videos I referred to, where we see big carp moving to one piece of bread to another, or some of my own video material where we see some carp going straight at a single kernel of corn, swallowing the rig and moving right away, this does prove your point. Oh wait... you really want to see boilies, don't you...

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I would never be so bold as to tell someone how to bait up and film an underwater vidio. I just hope that no matter what is offered to the world as fact, it be FACT. So far as Mario's stratagy goes, it will work well as long as no packbait is in the mix, then its all over and he even knows it. Why else does he refuse to fish any competitions?? Fishing alone with one bait gives the carp no choice. Competition baits rule. :P

Tom.

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Oh wait... you really want to see boilies, don't you...

Lol, would be nice for a change. But honestly, the non focused suck and blow type of feeding is one of the reasons I often don't use small particles when fishing big fish waters. Only when the carp are already feeding this way because of the naturally available food source (such as the ever so abundant waterboatmen in Lioness at the moment) it might be worthwhile to present small particles in the area they are already feeding in.

Otherwise, I much rather have a carp zoom in on my hook bait, inhale it and move on to the next boilie a few feet away. Fish on... B)

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Lol, would be nice for a change. But honestly, the non focused suck and blow type of feeding is one of the reasons I often don't use small particles when fishing big fish waters. Only when the carp are already feeding this way because of the naturally available food source (such as the ever so abundant waterboatmen in Lioness at the moment) it might be worthwhile to present small particles in the area they are already feeding in.

Otherwise, I much rather have a carp zoom in on my hook bait, inhale it and move on to the next boilie a few feet away. Fish on... B)

I guess the water temps in Mexico would be compatable to those where Jerome is vidioing?? Or does it even matter?? I think it makes all the difference.jmho But, what do I know. ~8

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Packbait breaking has nothing to do with the water temps
I guess the water temps in Mexico would be compatable to those where Jerome is vidioing?? Or does it even matter?? I think it makes all the difference.

Hey Tom, bantering aside, you got me quite confused here. Mind elaborating?

(and for the record, I do respect a lot your knowledge about baits... even if I have severe doubts about your rigs!)

Edited by Jerome
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