Prefessa
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Posts posted by Prefessa
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Have You ever Tasted Buttermilk?? Its Far From Sweet! Its loaded with Lactic Acid! Which is an attactor in its own right. A wetter can make the difference between a run or having them not finish the bite if the base mix is good.
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Expiors are sweet...about 6 more ball bearings than a Coronado...I have 2 EP30s that have caught me tons on carp and is my Go To Party Boat Bucktail Jigging Reel for Fluke.
The Avengers are Good but Disposable reels...the gearing is such that after ahwhile evreything wears out abd gets sloppy....Got 6 years out of an ABF 30...not bad for 35 bucks.
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I dunno guys...seems like semantics to me. PVA bags accomplish the same thing a feeder or pack does...only its loose feed, no feeders and there are no break times, or compressions to worry about. To me single hookbait is just that, a single hook bait and relying on prebaiting, spodding, or accurate groundbait to dial in the fish.
Collegues of mine in the NL do this, baiting swims with Boilies and only topping off with boilies, as they found groundbait brought in too many small fish and subspecies (white or red Roach and Crucians) on some public venues. Result for them was one take every 24 hrs...but all large.
In the USA we have more carp so I assume better results...than 1 fish a day.
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Really hate to burst your bubble here...but this is a product that will make marginal difference in your fishing but people feel confident when they put stuff like this in baits....
First and formost this is a mixture of Betaine and Thaumatin. Betaine (Trimethyl Glycine) is a sweet tasting amino acid and Thaumatin is a Natural Mixture of 2 peptides that are 3000X sweeter than sugar. So it is a bait sweetner! Betaine has never really shown me much in the way of attactant and I have tried both the Dot HCl and the Freebase...both duds...the sweetner has merit and is the likely cause of the product having any activity whatsoever.
I spent 9 months in Europe for Work and Scoured every Carp Shop in the Netherlands...No One Buys this type of stuff there it sits on the shelf and collects dust.
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Guys:
I dont have the zebra mussel issue here.....but it is true that once a fish takes you over a ledge your done. I have switched all my carp rods to SINKING BRAIDS...Tuff Line makes one called HEVICORE and So far its the most brasion resistant. Two schools of though here.....Either make a Bimini Twist that is rather long and connect it to your terminal gear (I like heavy Fluorcarbon in Lieu of Leadcore). Or likely the best solution is purchase a spool of 80 lb Hevicore and add a 30 foot topshot to your current braid. I generally use 30# Braids for the big rig and 20 for my small rods.
Sinking Braids are really what you need here..the problem is all other spectra braids is that they float! I have had issues with either not getting bit or having the fish take a long time to finish the bite with standard spectra. It really messes the fish up even in unpressured swims.
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The Only Pack Baits I havent caught fish with are Rice and Chow...Chow they ate...but I cant get them to finish the bite...its too nutritious it fills em up!
RICE.....I HAVE A SUSPICION that the old school Rice n Ketchup that is all over the net and You Tube...is from the stone age of Pack and no one uses that crap anymore. Its caught squat for me in the wild, and I was Coached by Mr Big himself on how to make it and when you make it right it packs nice, breaks real nice, and your hands stay clean cause its not sticky or gloppy. It just dont work. Whatever condition occurs in a paylake that make fish eat this stuff doesn't happen in my swim.
I wish someone would pass on THE REAL RICE recipe.If Paylakers Folks are throwin Red Rice...its likely something else with a red flavor on it. Rice should have its place. When the water is too warm for Oats and not warm enough for Millet...thats when Oats turn into a Bull Head Magnet and Millet doesnt get a sniff.
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what i have discovered using bread pack is this...................the pack breaks down and when the carp find it ...................it almost disappears into thin air , so to speak, and fills the senses of the carp. but does not satify the HUNGER. so the fish goes looking for it and find nothing but my hook bait (PUFF) and a puff with a little buttermilk soaking is all that is needed!!
Bird...You Hit the nail on the head....Bread is the Miller Lite of Carp Bait....Less Filling...Tastes Great! Thats why its my favorite this time of year....gets em feeding without filling them up.
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Chris:
I would say yes...Good ole SF sourdough is loaded with Lactic, Acetic/Pruvic/Citric/Succinic Acids may make the bread more carp specific.
Panko has little to no Bread Aroma...and they are missing the components of Malliard Browning(No Crust).
BTW paid 2.39/lb for Panko at Whole Foods thats as much as you should pay for it...if you sit on a 25# bag you should be around $1/lb. Corrados in Clifton sells it in there Restaurant supply section. If you want to keep the catfish out I would keep cream corn out. Good ole High Quality H20 may be suggested here.
Had some luck BTW this year by leaving the pickup outside the bait ball. Is been a strange year with the weather. So try packing around your sinker and squishing the pickup so it stays on the bottom. Catfish have a mega sized mouth that can inhale a method ball the size of grapefruit. Also try the hair Rigged Bread Pellet we spoke about.
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Guys:
The reason I bought this up is that one of my many hobbies is making breads....now there is a world of difference in flavor depending on how bread is made,leavened, processed and fermented. Also this years crop of cheap bread has been wetter and needs to be ground up and let sit overnight so it don't lock up.
Most cheap bread is made with a sponge preferment...that is all the water, all the yeast and part of the flour...that is allowed to ferment a long time, then the bulk of the flour is added and the bread loafed allowed a second rise and baked. It also produces bread with a dense crumb and soft texture
Sourdough breads use long fermentation with a combination of yeasts and lactic acid bacteria...different animal, and more sour which I belive the carp may like!
Pannetone is sweeetend/ flavored, enriched with eggs and butter, and is made with VERY VERY high gluten flour..which means MORE PROTEIN! The better ones are naturally leavened and long fermentation times are employed here.
Challah and Brioche has lots of egg in it...so how much different can it be from the egg biscuit that alot of match anglers use as the base of their groundbait??
Panko is made by electocution so there is no malliard browning...its what I like in the fall...but in deep winter the white breads have more flavor and aroma. Its pretty bland, but lends itself to be wet with anything from cream corn, to soda pop, to pond water. fruit juice ect. Its versatile.
I did try a whole wheat bread once and it locked up easily.
Just throwing out ideas here...but there is typically an extra Pannetone at my house day after Christmas and Christmas day breakfast is usually Pannetone french toast(YUM).
Have an open mind...I am sure that the first guy to use panko was made fun of by folks who didn't see the merit in spending $3+ a pound for Bread Crumb when the day old bread from the thrift store caught fish just fine...panko is a very different animal...to watch it break is a thing of beauty...its seems to grow when it breaks.
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Joe.
Maybe a select combination of any or all? Maybe KISS?
True...I do know that some whole wheat varietals...dont pack well at all...so far for me I like "Freeze Dried" bread for the late fall when the fish tire of grits and start wanting bread but if you make it up with cream corn it still has something in it they recognize from the last bait in rotation....then the cheap stuff when the water is in the mid 40's.
Bread is a pretty complex thing...white bread is made via a sponge preferment so that the fermentation generates all that bready/yeasty flavor and small regular crumb.
Sourdough has alot of lactic acid bacterial fermentation...thats where the tang comes in.
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Guys:
Just a thought worthy of discussion.
For the most part...I have ground up the cheapest family sized loaves of squishy spongy white bread in the supermarket and caught fish. But...are there other breads that you found may be better....Sourdough for instance is the first that comes to mind. Sourdough Bread does have more Lactic Acid in it than white.
Or what about enriched breads like Challah??? After all...you are fishing for Gefilte Fish...No??
Or....Panettone....already flavored and sweetend!!And is made from very high gluten flour with added eggs and butter.
How many of us have surplus Fruitcake lying around after Christmas! Could that be repurposed??
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BCLT:
To Be brutally honest...YES your mix is a good one!!. The Wheat Flour was my suggestion for 3 reasons....1st its cheaper, 2nd its more attractive since the Germ and Bran is intact, third the fiber encourages leakage. I also suggested a switch to animal grade soy and maize and spend some time grinding it down. The difference between Human Food and Animal Food based Grain Products is cleanliness and cost. (More Dirty and Cheaper to buy animal grade product.) Chick starter is like coarse corn meal. And Bean Meal is Coarse Soy Flour(Defatted)...get my drift??? With a little grinding..viola' you have flour fit for boilies and not human consumption.
Now...Egg can seal off a boilie with a high carbohydrate base, so that it essentially becomes waterproof. A boilie needs to hydrate to fully communicate a food signal. From the Boilie Calculator anything in the 20-30% protein range can be made into a fairly good bait. My Preference is to target ~30% as it seems to be the highest level of protein you can develop instant baits with and they suffer the least amount of "Instantness" Loss when Egg is added. Also with that level of nutrition you should be able to catch fish on these baits year round. A bait less than 20% Protein can be instant, but may blow after ahwhile if used time after time for massive baiting programs...also CRAP baits made with no protein at all...suffer the biggest loss of Intant Attraction when Eggs are added and their boilied. Like I said...I know guys that have caught fish with a Corn meal, Semo and Kool Aid mix...that scratch there head when they catch one day and blank the next.
Now....HNV...Once a Base mix gets to much more than 35% Protein....its scary expensive and the intant attraction goes Waaaay down. The waters in the USA have such huge bodies of carp you would go broke prebaiting with these. The True HNV baits of Fred Wilton was formulated to condition fish in tough waters with low stocking density and while protein is a good thing....remember what they say about too much of a good thing. Also Wilton fished at a time when protein was a fairly new addition to baits and felt that the fish could be conditioned to ignore baits of lesser nutritional value. Funny though...his original baits were pastes!! Not Boilies. For instance....Nutrabaits makes a Milk Protein Based Bait Called Hi-Nu-Val....its over 2x the cost per Kilo than anything they sell!!
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Guys:
Just want to add to this....I think the boile is a very misunderstood bait in the USA...folks used to "Instants" will be immediately dissapointed when fishing these as hook baits. Yes once they get established...they become serviceable hookbaits, but.....
Lets compare the Paylakers "Pickup" to a boilie shall we??? I have fished SPL style for quite some time and I tell you...as much as a Plain Puff is a decent hook bait...It sucks in comparison to a true "Pickup"...in other words a plain puff becomes a pickup when boosted by substances that "Trigger a Strike". So a Paylaker will have loads of secret triggers that when added to the lowly puff...the fish Got to have it! It becomes the most attractive thing in the bait pile.
So why would you think that a boilie is any different?? If you simply add together a bunch of stuff that makes great paste, method or packbait an add egg and boil it...guess what....you wont get a sniff on it! Why...Use the Boilie calculator..Take Some Oats, and Grits and Wheat Bran...the calculator gives that a 100% Instant Value...no add eggs it drops to the mid to low 80's...so why whould a carp choose a bait like this, when your method, pack or groundbait is 100% Instant?? You might as well be fishing a wooden bead.
Sooo...what to do?? Take a page from the Paylakers handbook....You have to put the attraction back in that the egg has killed! There isn't a boilie formula in Europe that doesn't use something in there that will leak out and make them instant...at least not the ones that wind up on the hair...the Brits call em "Boosted Hookbaits". I know that they want to sell products, but most boilie recipes destined for hookbaits have loads of Minamino, CSL, or Yeast Extract in them...they always chuck un betaine (Which BTW...DOES NOTHING!). Whether any of these products are any good is not the point...the point is that if your boilie is a hook bait it needs help, just like an Arrowhead Mills Corn Puff needs Help to trigger a strike!
If you read Marios article you will see he has his private concoctions that when added to boilies boost the attractiveness.
As for multi day baiting...yes the longer boilies soak, the more instant they become...and if the carp like the flavor...they will come back for more. Once they are recognized as a food source...they will become serviceable "pickups".
I have used the calculator to formulate a base mix that is ~30% Protein and 98+ on instant Attraction and 90+ on Rolling/Handling....Will be experimenting with these on some waters where boilies are not established and see how I do.
Also the Big FIsh Selectivity....has been proven time and time again...bigger average size with smaller overall numbers of fish....Big Mature Carp get that way by eating proteinacous ingredients in the wild...like Shellfish! They are used to hard foods, they have powerfull molars. These fish are conditioned to Protein and they expect a protein containing food to not be soft. All US waters I have fished boilies in that have a natural abundance of shellfish I have caught fish with boilies straight away without prebaiting. Waters where there is little natural food, except for seeds, insects and detritus...good luck! There are waters in the USA that the fish are so conditioned that it would take some very expensive programs to get the fish onto boilies and if the venue doesn't have big fish...whats the point??
The concusion here is that boilies have there time and place in the carp anglers aresenal....there are likely more bad boilie users in the USA, then there are bad boilies! Although I have Seen some boile formulas on this board that just make me roll my eyes. Anyone who is gluing together semolina, corn meal and Kool Aid together with egg and boiliing it is just asking for disapointing results. You may get the odd fish...but there are Paylakers in the North that use wooden beads and catch fish also.
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The reason your braid rig didnt get bit is not visual. Braid Floats...as soon as a grasser feels line of any kind running into his belly it spells danger. I had the same experience and proved I was correct by splicing 35 ft of mono to my braid and then I caught equally well of both rods.
If You like braid then invest in Spiderwire Fluoro Braid which sinks...this gets bit quite nicely, and gives you the advantage of braid when fighting a fish. I converted all my spinning reels to this, its good stuff!
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There was an ingredient in the UK years ago by the name of Prutien, it was some kind of animal feed and came in pellets which had to be ground down, i was given a bag of this that someone had allready ground, it was an awsome bait until it became commercially availble and was ready ground, never did any good on that, would love to know more about this substance if any of you guys from back there were privvy to the stuff on the secret list back then.
Baitbucket:
From what I could figure out...Prutein=Range Cubes. These have a proven track record of taking carp. It is likelly a mixture of Vegan Proteins coming from one if not all of: Cottonseed Meal, Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal and Brewers Dried Yeast mixed with Wheat Middlings. Remeber that Farmers want return on investment so the stuff is made from high protein edible waste products from other industries. Any Agricultural feed store has these in various protein values.
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Also if you are looking to make these cheaper go with southern states Soy Meal instead of Soy flour and if its too coarse grind in yourself in a coffee mill. and instead of Semolina use the Store Brand of Whole Wheat Flour. As for corn meal...well again look for bulk or grind your own from "Chick Starter Scratch Feed" which is essentially coarse ground maize. If you think feed store and purchase a grinding tool...you will be saving money in the long run. I wouldn't tinker with a good mix if I had alternatives.
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Shawn:
Youir mix is perfect as is close to 94% intstant and with 10 eggs has a hardness of 72 and a processing rating of 93% and 86% Instant which is great after the eggs are in. Just keep making these...there fine! This is a bait that should catch well and roll like a dream.
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Guys alot of this really makes sense to me and correlated with bank results. If you fish a paste of white bread and water in winter....you will have a 100% INTSANT bait that will catch fish every day of the week. Now add eggs and boil it....It will literally go ignored on most waters where bread works great. Bread paste will exude all kinds of food signals and a bread boilie will be as attractive as a wooden bead, until they take in enough water to start to send a food signal.
A boilie is like a paylakers pickup...it should trigger the bite...unfortunately...its not that easy to acccomplish this. Rod Hutchinson said in "Carp Fishing Now and Then" that binding paste with egg and boiling it solves many problems and creates others. This is why birdfoods were added along with attractants like Minamino or Phosfor Syrup(Multamino-PPC) so that something leaks out of these things that triggers a stike. Now for more...when you chum with boilies the longer they stay in the water the more they become like paste...so the ones you chum with will eventually be recognised as food and be consumed even if you havent added any of these things. So...if you need boilies to be instant...they need to have something in there that leaks, and an open cell structure to leak out of. Soluble ingredients, like Whey, Milk Powder and Caseinate Salts or Predigested Fishmeal should be part of these formulas as well as attractants. Otherwise all you would have is the equivalent of a wooden bead until they start to fully hydrate and fall apart. This is why some of the bait companies keep there recipes to themselves, but may be glad to share the basic basemix formula if they sell ingredients to make it yourself. The magic is in "The Bits n Pieces" that they put in.
The succesfull boilies I made ahwhile back had 15 ccs of Corn Steep Liquor in it per 5 eggs and had a load of crushed birdseed. They worked straight away but I never tried them on waters were boilies werent established.
BCLT....would be glad to take a look at your mix as see what can be done.
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The Thing I like about Casien is it gives the boilie a rubbery texture that I think feels more like food than a rock. It doesn't Leak though. The basemix I have on the calculator is based on Soy Isolate and Lactalbumen and is ~31% Protein. It has no Brewers Yeast and No Wheat Germ, but it has an instant score of 100 and a bait Rolling Score of 90 After the Egg is in the Instant goes to 90.2% and the Hardness is 75. As soon as you add wheat germ, Brewers Yeast the Intstantness dropped to the mid 80's. Same with other proteins, caseins Milk Powder or Egg powder.
If the program is accurate...you can make a fairly instant bait that is nutritious enough to have a long catch life so long as you keep it simple, nutritious and add sensible attractants that leak.
This is beginning to make sense...a high carb boilie(Crap Baits) get an instant score of 100%, But as soon as you add egg the Intstantness plummets, likely because there is no leaking. If the Fish take these there is little to no food signal so eventually the fish will tire of these.
Bills Partner Wayne told me he pre baited a swim with 50/50's and the next day they were gone, the second time he baited they just sat there...he could spot carp playing with them picking up the odd one and spitting it out. The third day...they just sat there. Then he rolled some baits on a Ritchworth Mix...every time he baited the fish ate them. That inspired Bill and Wayne to start making there own...because good boilies were not cheap and Cheap Boilies were not good!
Man would I love to be in Holland now drinking a La Trappe Trippel!
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I would love to share some bank space with you some day, I think we have lots to talk about it.
Mario.....same here!!! If I ever start traveling to the Nethelands again I will keep you posted...so If you make a trip home to visit family we could put that together! I just had a thought.....although Semolina is what is traditionally used...What about Whole Wheat flour??? Would that help??? The Calculator makes no distinction, but the only successful boilie I have ever made was on a base of Whole Wheat Flour...it also had Brewers Yeast, Wheat Germ, Bird Food, Acid Casein 90 mesh, Soy Flour, Corn Meal, Icing Sugar, and Chilis.
I am with you..what I do is roll sausages, cut them into links, steam them then after they cool I will cut them into pellet with a chefs knife so they have 2 open sides. I hair rig them across the pellet so as to make use of the skin.
I will introduce boilies with my gound bait...either broken or whole small. So far in the US that has worked on the St Lawrence and the Potomac where they took them straight away!
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Yes....But it seems that a good basemix with a solid nutritional profile will be fairly instant, yet have a long catch life so long as you choose your ingredients wisely. I steam all my baits so they don't boil out.
Another question....how long does it take for carp to forget?? I mean if you bait a spot with a long term bait and catch fish and don't show up for 2 more weeks?? do you need to start the baiting program all over again??
I am predominately a short session angler, and I will pretty much take week or two off between sessions. Thats why I prefer Tidal Rivers where I can come, bait, and fish in the same day because the fish stage in the current.
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Thanks Mario:
It seems that all of the milks with the exception of the Lactalbumen which is a soluble whey protein will lower the instant attraction. A 50/50 mix with added birdfood for leakage is a relatively instant bait, but I still would reach for the Lactalbumen so there is actually something to leak. Its the Caseins that seem to be not so instant, but carp do like it and on waters that the fish take boilies the baits will be instant anyway. Fishmeals are a sore subject here...I have had no luck whatsoever here on fishmeal in anything even after 3 days of baiting. In europe the fishmeal is practically instant!
It seems that there is a sweet spot when yolu basemix hits 30% of the correct proteins such that the program says the basemix is instant and is still very instant after the eggs go in. It seems that high carb baits are instant, but they kinda fall off the mountain once the eggs are added. Thats why 50/50 mix is relatively unreliable and explains why those who bind there favorite pack bait with egg and boil it don't catch fish. I have a spot that I used to leger bread crust...so I made bread boilies...never got a sniff on em! For Leak Rate to be worth anything the baits need bulky ingredients to give them an open cell structure, but its useless unless there is something in there that leaks! Thats why my bread boilies didnt catch fish...there was nothing in there sending a food signal. Thats why all HNV formulas in the UK contain copious amounts of Minamino, or Multamino so baits leak a food signal.
The question I have is...do the instant ratings indeed correlate well with your bank results???
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Hi Shawn:
The Bolie calculator I used is on this site as a download and available to everyone. It was prepared by Mario Kok and from what I Understand it was a pared down, translated version of Karper Voyeur 2000 that was originally in Dutch. It rates a formula for Hardness, Workability and Instant Attraction. If You put in a typical 50/50 mix it rates it 100% Instant. If You put in a typical Fred Wilton HNV Mix with three or four different Milk Proteins and Wheat Germ, and Brewers Yeast it gets a score of Like 75%
Crap Baits made from Carbs will initially get a score of 100% until you add eggs then the rating plummets. From what I see a basemix with a ~30+% Protein 50% Carbs about 5-6% Fat and the remainder fiber...will get a instant rating of 100% and be around 90%after you add eggs. As soon as you add HNV ingredients like Caseins, Fish Meal. Liver Powder, Wheat Germ, Brewers Yeast your score goes down considerably and I guess this denotes a long term bait. A bait like that will break the bank! Now I know the Boilie Shoppe was the first to use this program...Bill was a computer guy by occupation. He used to claim his base mixes were between 99 and 100%Instant but were very nutritious for long term attraction. His baits were very successful....likely too successful because the orders got so large it took over his life and he had to throw in the towel or buy a factory and roll bait full time.
I am hoping Mario chimes in on this one since its his program.
You can find it here...http://www.carpanglersgroup.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34650
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K...I have been playing with this thing.....One thing I have noted is that....Really Crap Baits are 100% instant....but the Instant value plummets when you add eggs. This is kinda what I have seen when folks try and make boilies out of Semolina or Bread and no protein....the bait catches as a paste, but sucks as a boilie.
As soon as you get a mix that is 30% plus % Quality Milk proteins(Casein, Calcium Caseineate, Powdered Milk)..the Instant value again drops like a stone even though carp are supposed to like these things.
You can make an instant bait with some proteins and bird foods that will retain the value after eggs are added...but as soon as you start adding ingredients that are supposed to be super carp attractants like Liver Powder, Wheat Germ, Brewers Yeast, and Krill meal...the instant value drops like a stone again...which flys in the face of the Euro Bait Companies claims
So....before I waste a batch of expensive Protein Isolates...does it really correlate???
I have a bait formula that is pretty simple,has no fancy ingredients, that the boilie calculator says suposed to be 100% Instant and 90.5% Instant after you add the eggs. So maybe this boilie thing is really not so complicated after all....We tend to over formulate based on the hype in the Euro Carp Mags??
What do you do with old rice packbait?
in Beginning Carping
Posted
You Guys actually catch with this stuff in the wild?? Havent gotten a sniff on rice..... a few small ones on one outing is all.
Was advised to use Puree' instead of Ketchup...that is where the 28 ounces came from. Puree comes on 28 ounce cans....so folks started using ketchup and in paylakes it worked.....