[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

I think Tom would agree this thread needs more:

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Forkhorn,

Tom once used a boilie as pickup when abroad and low and behold, he caught a carp so big his buddy had to hold it for him. True story.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Craig, interesting point. Haven't been there in a while but I have seen this as well on Lioness for example. Over the years this lake has been fished by some 10 guys on occasional basis, including myself. One of the biggest mirrors there has an absolute preference for boilies and I have caught that fish 4 times already. No one else has caught her yet.

Now there is also a significant school of teens to mid twenties in the lake. They never ever get caught!!! You can see them during spawn, but they just don't come out. We tried packbaits (yes, around the pickup as well), method, floatrod, boilies, the works. Fishing with worms is near impossible because of the ciclids. Those mid size fish just don't get caught except, ON THE FLYROD. Luis has caught several of them. They are so focused on feeding on small bugs like waterboatman that they completely refuse everything else. Of course Hammer and Tom haven't fished there yet so that would probably change everything.

Plenty of examples from Europe as well. Very interesting stuff.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

I ran across a color test for carp somewhere. Cant remember the details but if memory serves it was all the same bait just colored differently.

I did write down the results of this color test down in my carp notes notebook.

The baits were eaten in this order of color

Blue

Yellow

Black

Green

But not in Red

Those muppets must have done the test in the dark. Or 60ft deep.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Hammer, the consistent manner in which you keep talking down on Euro style angling truly does justice to your forum name. But hey, cramp your own style, fine by me. I don't remember who said it but " Paylake Wannabee" had me giggling...

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

My apologies to you and to phonebush. I was sure I read in his white paper that one of the ingredients in his ideal bait was a 1/4 of an alka-seltzer tablet. I really did try it and so have others.

In all honestly, he said that too. If I'm not mistaken to be used in combination with a metal spring, a dash of beer yeast (actually not a bad score in the test) and a real fish eye to finish it of. There you go, the most infallible all American pick up.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

It was Alka Seltzer not Tums. And yes I have tried baking soda in a pack. You have to move very fast to get it out there before it erupts. If I wanted to give it a real test I would use it in millet pack or that forever grits pack. The heavy corn syrup would slow down the reaction until the water got to it.

Ha, from the legend himself: "A side bar, I use as the “best” secret ingredient. Don’t tell anyone. Antacids like Tums and Rolaids (peppermint for fun) really turn on the little electric receptors in the fourth sensory system in carp."

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Nice. Now imagine something imitating the sound of cracking crawdad shells...

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

I have a question about colour. Was the test done in sunlight , that is natural light or under fluorescent or incandescent light. How did the test compensate for the depth of water being fished. If the person conducting the experiment did not account for this then I doubt the results are valid.

Now now, let's just wait for the NACA to come in shall we?

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

That's what I'm saying. Don't add something just because Phone said in the Whitepaper it would make it better. Do you also add Tums to your pickup?

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

That your puff is already loaded with natural attractors. I'm trying to protect you from yourself. Don't make it worse!

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Only if you know what to throw Tom. In some cases it might be quite the opposite.

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Did I mention SOUND already?

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Brookesy,

Sure, a tank test is always limited. And it's always possible to discredit any test based on such limitations. No discussion there. But, some of the most critical bias errors where avoided and the test were well done.

I'm careful to draw hard conclusions from tank test, but I think there are a couple of real eye openers that came out of it. Color being one of them.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Well, what can I say about Pone's Whitepaper.

Here you go. http://www.carpanglersgroup.com/forum/index.php?/topic/37507-white-paper-nov-2009/

Another wonderful winter read. Phone, where-ever you are my friend, I sure enjoyed our chat in Austin.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Let's ask you guys this then:

You have let's say 20 attractors to choose from. Let's say 5 show very very positive results during testing, most have some average effect and many also do absolutely nothing. Which ones would you choose from?

Let's just say it's very hard to find anything better than natural proteins or carbohydrates.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

I didn't say salt doesn't work. ROCKSALT was tested as a stand alone attractor and the reaction was completely negative.

Salt as an additive to other ingredients might be a completely different story. I definitely think taste enhancers have their place in bait. Salt might be just that. We have a looooooooot to learn and far too little reliable research is available. Perhaps kind of the charm of fishing, now isn't it?

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Daniel Jadwadnya makes a very good point in the NACA: In angling, and not just paylaking, we often make assumptions based on a few positive experiences. Those assumptions quickly convert into rocksolid convictions, often even passed on from one angler to another. The impact is even bigger if some "famous" angler writes about something.

But do we really KNOW what causes something to work or fail? For that reason Daniel undertook an elaborate tank test experiment and there are some real shockers in there.

As to the hot sauce you make for your puff. I think it's a wasted effort. There are without any doubt much more effective attractors you can use to make your puff, ehem..."trigger a strike". Seriously, read the NACA. GUS

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Hammer. With sugar i meant the carbohydrate composition of your puff.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Scott used to be an excellent stalker because fish loved hanging around the shadow created by his giant head. Now he's lean and mean he catches f.... all. True story.

[2013 Wooden Shoe Carp Classic Results/Pics/Stories]

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Marcus is right though about not limiting oneself. When I was living in Holland, fishing was relatively easy; simply prebaiting with good boilies for a few days in a good spot and I would catch loads of 20's with an occasional 30 and 40. No need to really think about my fishing.

Mexico turned out to be a completely different ball game though. First, the search for big fish, then the extremely low amount of large fish per acre. The always changing climate in the mountains, the absolute abundance of natural food, etc. Blanking became normal. Success was an exception in the beginning. If according to popular believe ( ) I would only have fished boilies all the time I would have seriously limited me in my approach. My very first fish from Lioness actually came on the floatrod with sweetcorn.

So no matter how annoying sometimes the discussion on this forum, I learned a lot about pack baits, method, zigrigs, even flyfishing and mieliebom etc. And I apply every single one of them from time to time. Packbaits are difficult to fish here, because we simply can't get the ingredients (grits, puffs etc). But we get oats, millet. Hell, I even tried rice and ketchup!

Do I prefer one method over the other? Well, depends what I am after. I still use a lot of boilies after prebaiting if I am after big fish. Yes, no doubt about it. But most of my Mexican 40's came during very difficult circumstances where I was forced to adapt.

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Marcus, my Lioness record came on an oatpack fished method style with red critically balanced corn as a pick up. Just sayin'...

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Hammer, would you believe that in recent tank tests " the hot stuff", in version of chili powder, came up with an almost ZERO score as an attractor. So did garlic and rocksalt by the way.

Now, the question is, what "hot stuff" are you using? Did it really help, or only in your mind? If it did work, was it the capsaicin, or the sugar in the hot sauce? Or maybe the salt? I'm highly interested in this issue and I also love fine tuning my (hook) boilies. But I'm now more and more convinced that the functional ingredients in my old "chili-shrimp" boilie booster very much came from the shrimp and sugar and not so much from the chili. Could it be that the main attractor is the sugar in your puff, rather than the stuff you throw on it? How much do we really know...???

Not sure when you get the NACA up there, but I'm sure you will want to read it...

[Pack versus method; not for the humor challenged]

Hammer, your argument only applies if indeed you use a 1000 ingredients. Now what if I use only grits and cream corn, fished method style? Same thing.

Humor me and let´s get back to triggering a strike. What attractors have you been able to prove really make a difference on a puff?