Silurus_glanis
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Posts posted by Silurus_glanis
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Draw is important but skills more important, even bad draw can be ok if you know what to do.
best regards
Paul
I am not actually complaining about a bad draw here. Rather, I am complaining that one of the most important skills of an angler is being hindered by the lottery system. My point is that when you go fishing some place and not during a tournament, you do not just pull up to the first spot and start fishing, at least I do not. You first look for an area where the fish should be located according to what you see and what you know about carp behavior. Often, that means a spot where the carp are visible; although, not necessarily. You then look for structures, depth changes, bottom composition changes, or whatever that concentrates fish feeding, holding, or traveling within that swim by plummeting or with your SmartCast. Then you put you baits where they need to be placed to catch fish. Well, at least that is what I do. That is the F + L part of the equation. Find the fish and then fish for them. However, I do agree with you that your overall skills are more important than just being able to find fish. You put a guy new to angling on the best spot, and he probably is not going to win the tournament anyway. But, again, he might just get lucky and cast his bait out to the right spot and catch one carp after another.
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I have not been able to find reliable statistics on the number of serious carp anglers living in the United States; however, a handful of key persons that I have asked have said between 3,000 and 6,000. It is also my understanding that there are currently less than 3,000 CAG members residing in the USA. Even if there are actually 20,000 serious carp anglers, it is not enough to get the industry going strong. Unfortunately, the way it is now, is how some people want it to stay. I personally would like to see thousand of small fishing derbies spring up across the country, state championships, regional championships, and a national championship. There is a series of tournaments going on in the USA that includes regional qualifiers and a national championship, but nothing smaller connecting to these main event tournaments. I think that businesses would donate more money to major tournaments, thus translating in smaller entry fees and large payouts for the professionals, if there were more novice anglers buying their goods. To generate more sales there needs to be more customers. I believe the best way to generate more numbers of anglers interested in the sport of carp fishing is for there to be more small tournaments (derbies) closer to the homes of potential candidates. I cannot honestly prove my catfish angler population numbers either, but only tell you that I read in an In-Fisherman Catfish Guide that there were over 1.3 million catfish anglers residing in the Midwest. I read this sometime ago, and I no longer have that issue, nor do I remember which one I was reading. I remember reading that the numbers came from DNR surveyors’ statistical data. If you have been asked by a person wearing a DNR uniform about what kind of fish you were after, and rather or not you kept the fish, then you know what I am talking about. Based on the number of bank-bound catfish anglers that I run into when I am out fishing, I figure they make up about half of the total of catfish anglers residing in the Midwest. Some of these bank catfish guys are my friends, and they do fish for carp for fun even if they are not as serious about it as I am. On the other hand, they take the Fishing Rodeos very seriously, and any other fishing derbies that they may enter. Although we are not going to convert catfish anglers to carp “only” anglers, it is still possible to get them involved as serious contenders in carp tournaments. Yes, they may keep most of their catfish for food, but they are also sport hobbyist that practice catch and release. Most will free a large trophy fish, and very few anglers will consider keeping carp for food. Once they start seeing more guys winning these derbies with real carp gear, rigs, and baits, the sport angler will come roaring out of them, and they will start buying carp specialty items. Whatever is popular and mainstream is what most people will do. But, the problem is that most catfish guys move around a lot, and this whole pegging idea is going to be a hard sell because it goes against the grain of how most ban angers fish. So, that is where my logic for change is coming from. Besides, these posts are just conversation of what I would like to see happen, but if the powers that be and the majority of professional carp anglers are against it, it is not going to happen anyway. Is that good for the future of carp tournaments and the carp fishing business industry? I guess we will just have to wait and see; only time will tell.
I am done posting about this subject as it just causes a lot of a ruckus. I may not like pegs, but they are not going to keep me from competing; although, I might now be banned from a few events because of these post.
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There's only one place to hide them and that's a live well, very easy to check at the start.
They can hide them anyplace on the lake.
Why not if there are no pegs? I've never heard of a boat tournament that had a distance restriction, there's no need because time is a restriction.
Perhaps less so for bass tournaments, but many catfsih tournaments have restrictions. The "Cats Incredible Tournament" held on the Red River in North Dakota is an example. This is a major event that draws hundreds of competitors each year from across the United States.
There appears to be only two options to your dislike of peg draws, either you have a race to pegs, which eliminates anyone more physicaly challenged and likely many participants. The second is the option Andrew posted, which is simply another form of peg draw with addition of choice, even though the choice will become more and more limited.
I like Andrews idea myself, it at least takes some of the disappointment of feeling unlucky out of the equation. It also adds the dimension of studying the fishing venue and possible tact
To have a successful tournament you need to eliminate luck as much as possible, and while its impossible to eliminate all of it you would certainly want to eliminate the obvious. Physical disadvantages and home waters would be the first to come to mind and your idea does nothing to lessen or eliminate them.
I am for any kind of a compromise. Although my idea is the complete opposite of pegging, I would be fine with a pegged tournament that still allowed some freedom of movement. I just do not like the feeling of being tied down to one spot and not allowed to move to another. Just because something has always been done a certain way in the past does not mean it is the right or the only way to do it. That is the point that I am trying to make here. I think that a lot of pressure is put on host to follow traditional British carp tournament formats, or Eastern USA pay lake rules. In particular, here in the Midwest, these ideas are not going to fly well with the other anglers who might be interested in competing in carp tournaments. Very few fishing derbies are pegged. Also, if carp fishing is going to grow, then we have to start looking past traditional carp anglers. We have to start looking for other groups of anglers that might have an interest in fishing for carp instead of whatever they normally fish for. If I was a betting man, I would put all my marbles on the bank style catfish anglers being the answer. Most of them already fish for carp for fun, and they like fishing derby type tournaments from the shoreline. I think we have to get them on board to grow into something huge. I mean there are probably about 6,000 carp anglers in the entire USA and, at least, 600,000 bank-bound catfish anglers in the Midwest alone. The problem is that most of them already think chumming is cheating. Most would overlook this if everyone is doing it, but tell them they cannot pick the spot or move if they are not comfortable, and they will most likely tell you, “This carp tournament thing is not for me.”
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I don't see any correlation between bank fishing for carp and tournament bass fishing. The bass fishermen can go anywhere on the lake, but can't leave it. Possibly the most important thing is the fact they have Live Wells! Then there is the fact that if their first hunch concerning location is wrong, they can move.
So how would you approach the weighing? How would you assure that no one left the location, or received fish from somewhere else? Wouldn't allowing locals to fish their "spots" give them an unfair advantage, and cause others to stay away? These are the first that come to my mind.
I would think it would be easier for a boat angler to hide fish in a keep sack some place out of sight than it would be for a bank angler to hide fish along the shoreline or receive fish from someone not in the tournament, so I am a bit puzzled by this statement.
Your post also suggests to me that you would assume that a huge lake or an entire river would somehow be considered the fishing zone for a bank style tournament. Even in boat tournaments this is not always the case, and in a bank tournament this just would not be practical. In most boat tournaments, held on rivers, there are usually limits to how far a boat can travel up or down current. In a bank tournament, it is not likely that you could get permission to allow anglers to fish all the way around most large lakes as some areas would be private property. What I am suggesting is to limit where the competitors could fish to a space that is large enough for anglers to spread out comfortably and offers plenty of swim choices. So, on a river, similar to most boat style catfish tournaments, you could fish any spot from point “A” to point “B” as long as that spot was not already occupied by another competitor. (See the rules that I suggested to Jim.)
Weighing???
My hometown tournament follows the traditional match style of tournament weighing. Anglers will sometimes bring their largest fish up for weighing early, but, normally, will keep the rest until the end of the tournament in a keep sack. Unfortunately, this method does lead to higher fish mortality rates. However, I cannot see why a carp tournament without the pegging system could not also employ the idea of using weighing steward or marshals. Most carp anglers, once they are set up, are not likely to move anyway, so marshals could be positioned accordingly. Personally, once I have settled down in the location that I like and start catching fish, I am not likely to move. The whole idea of not pegging is so anglers can use their abilities to read the body of water, locate the fish, and end up in a spot/swim that they like. After all, if you chose the swim, then you cannot complain about it later. If you picked wrong, then that is on you, and nobody else.
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Pegging removes the chance of more than one person wanting the same swim. The way pegs are given out can be done in different ways depending on who is running the event. I know at the CCC I went too you could pay and draw again for a open peg if you didn't like the peg that you drew the first time.
This Will point out what can happen. we held a fish-in on the Mississippi river, there were two carp caught before the fish-in started. and none after that. At noon some of the guys said let us move up river I know we can catch carp there. so we moved to the spot I knew and had fished quite a bit, the fish-in was pick your own swim. To make a long story short the state chair said he was getting tired of just weighing my fish. I didn't get largest fish but I won every thing else. because I knew the spot where the fish hung out. was it fair no it wasn't. if there was a peg draw then the people who didn't know and had come from a long way to fish would of had a chance of getting that spot and could have won.
Paying all that money and driving all that way just to be defeated by a bad peg draw, is that fair?
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Phone,
Since you are pushing for boat tournaments, I would think you would agree more with me. Well, unless you are talking about a pegged boat event or something else??? I mean, is not the American traditional boat idea going against the pegging philosophy too??? Freedom to move to any location on the river or lake by boat... is that not the same as freedom to move wherever you want on foot???
“Can you give us a little history of why major carp tournaments throughout the world are pegged? I notice they were not pegged in the early years.”
Well, if all British carp anglers are soccer fans, then I guess that would answer the question.
But, honestly, I do not know. My guess is that there were way too many anglers for the number of swims available to fish when these events got popular, thus too many entries for the space available. So, my guess is that they adopt a lottery system to determine who would gets to fish and who would not. Later on, they probably just kept the lottery system in place even though the numbers of entries can be kept down by increasing the entry fees. Also, since most pegged tournaments are held on small lakes, it would stand to reason that this was a way to keep some order with the limited space. Furthermore, the Europeans do not have our tradition of boats or bank tournaments. With the exception of Tom’s pay lake tournaments out East, most (non-carp) tournaments allow anglers to move around. However, I really do not know why. Why do the British drive on the wrong side of the road? 
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i don't really like peg draws where you draw a peg and that's that either. i would much prefer a choice order type of thing whereby you draw for order of peg picking then choose your peg off the peg map. that way if you failed to catch you would only have yourself to blame. if you have 100 pegs and you have a top five,you would have to come out well down the draw to feel aggreived wheras under the current formats you could feel aggreived coming out first or last. i also advocate adding an extra ten or so free pegs that you can move into after a quick call to the organizers wouldn't go amiss either.
have spoken to big dave about this and although i would always tell him he couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery, he managed the texas event pretty well under a similar format to the above!
I like this idea!
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Paul ,what happens to the tournament when all the participants what the same swim?
I think the question here is who has the rights to a swim.
I fish a multi-species tournament in which there are no written rules for this possible dispute. We have never had any problems with competitors casting over the lines of other competitors or persons setting up right on top of other anglers. Maybe this is because we have a lot of room, or that many swims are separated by trees. Perhaps it is because most anglers either fish right on the bank or cast straight out in front of themselves. Maybe it is because normally nobody would do that to someone anyway, because it is disrespectful. However I can see how this unwritten respect for one another might not work in certain neighborhoods. If you have a group of highly aggressive competitors, you might want to add a few written rules to keep order.
You only need to look at a few simple rules used by professional catfish tournaments to solve this problem. (1) The first boat to a spot, anchored, and with their flag up, gets the spot. (2) No other boat can anchor closer than 50 feet to an anchored boat with a flag up. (Marshals are always watching, so follow the rules or be disqualified!) If necessary, these rules could also be applied to bank style tournaments. The first angler to a spot with their flag in the ground gets that spot. All other anglers will not be allowed to set up any closer than a predetermine distance from that angler. Also, an angler can move to any open spot, anytime, throughout the duration of the tournament. You just simply need to follow the rules of how close you can get to other anglers. That is how it works for the boat tournaments, and I do not see why it cannot work for bank tournaments too.
Also, even in pegging tournaments, you need to control how close an angler can cast towards another pegged competitor to keep anglers from casting over their neighbors’ lines. The general rule is half the distance between the two anglers on either side. This same rule could also be used for non-pegged events if needed. It really all depends on the attitude of the anglers entering the event. If it is a big money event, you are probably better off adding as many rules as possible to make sure there are no disputes.
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Ever since I joined CAG and the ACS, I have been pushing the idea of changing the format of traditional carp fishing tournaments. I strongly feel that by forcing a peg draw that a certain degree of luck is tossed into the tournament making it more difficult to win a tournament even if you happened to be a very strong and gifted angler. However, I have received very strong resistance to this change by traditional European/British anglers and pay lake anglers. My idea is to follow catfish and bass tournaments by allowing anglers to move around and to pick their own swims. Some anglers like this idea, but want to do it from a boat. I do not want boats involved either, because I want to see carp fishing remain a safe haven for bank style anglers. Right now, there really is nothing else out there for the bank guys as far as professional level fishing tournaments are concern. So, instead of trying to push forward with my tournament ideas, which are just not very popular, I would like to share with you beginners why I feel so strongly about this pegging issue or, should I say, the desire to remove pegging from professional carp tournaments. And also, to share with you a method of catching all species of fish that really works.
Now, what I am going to share with you has nothing to do with tournaments. It has everything to do with finding fish on any body of water. You can use this methodology on all types of water and for any kind of fish species. Although I was practicing this methodology way before I read about it in an In-Fisherman publication, I must give them credit because they were doing it long before I figured it out. The “In-Fisherman Secret System” is a book that really every angler should own. In that book you can further understand, in more details, what I am about to reveal to you on this posting. In that book you will find a mathematical equation that can be used to solve the problem of catching fish, F + L + P = S. Here is what each of these letters mean:
“F” (fish) means to know the fish by studying about its feeding habits, habitat, behaviors, and seasonal lifecycle patters. The more you know about the particular species of fish that you are after, the more successful you will be as an angler in locating them. That brings us to the next letter in the equation “L” (Location).
Have you ever heard the old saying that 90% of the fish are only in 10% of the water? Well, to some degree that is true part of the time; it all depends on the seasonal lifecycle of the fish species in question. At certain times of the year, carp are stacked together and other times of the year they are spread out more. This is true for many other species of fish too. For instance, flathead catfish seldom are found packed together, unless it is during prespawn movement, winter, or during a period of the summer where deep holes and suitable habitat are hard to find. Smart flathead anglers know that the best time to catch large numbers of some of the largest flathead catfish in a river system is during the winter months when they are tightly stack in wintering holes. My point here is that locating fish is the most important part of successfully catching fish. Like my grandpa always said, “You cannot catch fish where there are not any fish to be caught!” Also, unless you are using a drug that the carp are already addicted too, it is almost impossible to draw them out of a natural feeding area into a swim where they cannot hold or normally would not feed, thus my whole gripe with the pegging system. Furthermore, you should know that within every location (swim) there are micro-locations that are better than others. Micro-locations can be anything from some kind of structure, natural food source, to a bottom composition change. Carp simply like to feed in certain places, the dinner table you might say. Also, carp follow each other, may line up to feed at the same dinner table, or take turns feeding from the same micro-location. Knowing this can make all the difference from fishing a slow spot within a swim to fishing a fast spot with lots of runs. If carp are hungry, they might eat your food in the wrong spot, but not if they feel threatened or if the dinner table is filled with food. However, you cannot catch a fish without presenting a bait to the fish, so that is where the last part of the equation comes into play “P” (presentation).
All you have to do is watch a few Korda underwater DVDs and you can begin to understand the reason for a very well presented bait on the right rig. If carp are spooked off by your rig, they probably will not eat your hook bait. They might eat all the free offerings around the bait, but the hook bait itself might get left behind or left for last. Learning about knew rigs and presentations can help you deal with all possible scenarios of carp fishing presented to you. My friends and I used to spend hours developing new rig ideas in the winter months, and then would try these ideas during the fishing season. Nowadays, I am on my own putting rig ideas together. Luckily, for me, I have discovered rig ideas that work during most fishing situations. I have rigs for dough baits, pop-ups, boilies, and particles. I have float rigs, bottom rigs, and pop-up rigs to choose from, but it never hurts to experiment from time to time to try to discover new ideas.
So in conclusion, if you put the entire equation together you get F + L + P = S (Success). Learn all you can about fishing and the fish species you want to catch, learn to locate these fish at different times of the year in the body of water that you fish, find presentation ideas and baits that work for you, and work with them until you catch fish. Good luck beginners! I wish you all well on your journeys to become better carp anglers.
In conclusion of my pegging statement, here is why I do not like the pegging system! Pegging removed the “L” part of the equation. If you are on your own fishing, you seek the best location, and then try to find the dinner table within that location (swim). A pegging system kills that part of the equation and forces you to fish a swim that might not be a good spot to catch carp that particular time of the year. Catfish and bass tournaments use boats, so anglers can move to the location they want to fish and fulfill the “L.” My solution is not to add boats, but to simply allow anglers to move around on foot. However, if I was to support any type of pegging system, I would support the walking pegging system where an angler chooses their preferred location in order of the peg draw. I would also add that anglers could move to any open peg without penalty once the tournament had started. Loss of time moving to a new location would be penalty enough. But, that is just my opinion, and I do not see either of these two formats happening anytime in the near future. Also, since I like to fish tournaments, not host them, I am not likely to hold a tournament under either of these two formats. But, it never hurts to put your opinion out there because you never know who is listening and who will agree with you. Peace to the guys who disagree!
Paul Scott
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I have a question.
I will be fishing the WI Championship at the end of the month. That is probably the only time I will have to get four big carp. Although the tournament is over May 31st, I will not be able to enter my fish until I get back home on June 1st. What is the deadline for these last minute entries?
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The Chicago Carp Classic in Washington D.C., LOL!!!
Okay, that was funny, but could you please move it back to the Central Part of the USA?
I would like to suggest having it on Lake Thompson in South Dakota. Lots of room on the bank for anglers and not a lot of boat traffic. John Kelley was supposed to have a tournament there this year, but he could not get the entries. A lot of anglers missed out on what could have been some great fishing. If you are into numbers, the lake could break your back. I got on a school of small fish that averaged 15 pounds with the top fish caught weighing just less than 22 pounds. I just scratch the surface because there were much larger fish surfacing everywhere. Many of the locals, who do not fish for carp, have landed fish up over 30 pounds on lures. I saw some carp that probably were pushing mid-40 pound range. However, I could not get the larger fish to bite. If you are into slow biting big fish, then this place can offer you that too. It is an anglers’ carp heaven. No snags, very few people to bother you, endless beaches, and lots of large fish including some real monsters. And, it is a lake!!! No current to fight with!!! What is more is if you do not like this lake, then there are more! South Dakota and Minnesota are full of similar lakes.
That is my vote!!! Lake Thompson for CCC in 2009!!! <>< <>< <><
Paul
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Growing up in Central Illinois, I mostly have fished lakes with soft muddy bottoms that give way to clay. Not much depth and very little rocks in the areas where we grew up fishing. The result was a lot of small fish, but now I know better. I have been studying this question myself and I have some feedback that might help everyone. Most anglers who catch really large carp, over 20 pounds, are fishing locations that are associated with a few important factors.
(1) There must be clear cool water available to the fish.
(2) There does NOT need to be depth if the body of water is located in a cool climate such as South Dakota. Depth could be a factor if the fish need a place to hide from the sun. Cool underground streams can also negate the need for depth. The presence of a thermocline can force carp into warmer upper depths and render deep water useless, so the carp do not grow as large in these bodies of water. Lots of shade can help cool the lake down and result in larger fish.
(3) Carp need dissolved oxygen counts at or above 4 PPM to grow large fast.
(4) There needs to be a lot of mussels, shrimp, or other meeting prey available.
(5) Some place on that lake needs to be without silt. Silt can provide some good food opportunities, but gravel and rock provides larger meals for larger fish.
(6) A good number of predator fish species will help keep the carp from over populating and becoming stunted. Commercial fishing for small fish can also help control carp population overload.
(7) A large lake with lots of food will allow more fish to reach larger sizes. Large bodies of water usually hold the largest wild fish.
The small lakes require heavy predation from fish such as pike, catfish, and walleye. Both small and large lakes need to be cool, clear, and have lots of food. Lots of Food, high dissolved oxygen counts, water temperatures less than 70 degrees Fahrenheit for 9 to 10 months out of the year, and population control through heavy predation or high harvest of smaller fish will results in a trophy carp fishery. All the right factors have to be in place to have a large population of large adult female carp. Otherwise, you are trying for an old timer who is a freak of nature and larger than she should be. If you can find her, you can catch her, but good luck!
To answer your question... Depth is a good factor to consider when trying to locate the largest fish in that lake. Also, try fishing at night or during the Spring or Fall. However, you have to fish where the natural food is located or in areas that are traveling zones for fish between food beds. Large carp know where to get fed and you better know those locations too, if you want to increase your chances of hooking one of them.
Good Luck!
Paul <><
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didn't weigh it, but it was 48 inch grass carp. i was 9 when i caught it.
That is a 55 to 60 pound fish.
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If you are fishing a relatively clear lake and the wind is causing one side to get muddied up, then fish that side of the lake. Carp will feed in the cloudy water because the wind is freeing food that is normally buried out of the carp’s reach.
Always fish where the carp are flopping first, and then the windy end. Also, note that there are some areas that are natural feeding zones for carp where the carp may not show themselves. Keep in mind that any kind of structure or bottom composition change will also attract carp or signify that carp feed in that spot. Baiting up these areas will increase your chances of catching.
Muddy water will allow you to fish for carp without them seeing you easily. Clear water can make it harder to catch carp if you make yourself to visible. However, you can sometimes see the carp take your bait in clear water lakes. On the other hand, they may also be able to see your rig more easily making them harder to catch.
Deep cool clear water lakes with lots of food and some predation are the best lakes to find the largest carp. Muddy (silt bottom) warmer shallow lakes will contain lots of carp, but they will be much smaller on average when compared to clear lakes. The cooler the water, the more oxygen available, the more food, and the least amount of competition will result in forty pound fish. Warm, dark, shallow water will result in lots of small fish more often than not. So, water clarity is often more about how large the carp will be and not rather they will be feeding or living in that particular body of water.
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Kevin Maddocks wrote in his book that he found that harder baits seemed to work better than larger baits for larger carp.
I am just guessing here, but my experience tells me that your section of the river probably does not hold very many really large fish. You might get a 20-pounder one of these days, but probably the upper limit is about 16 pounds. You need to do some research on the river. I know the DNR does channel catfish studies on that river, so they might have some data on the carp. They might let you know what is the upper limits that they have caught in their hoop nets.
You may also need to try different baits and rigs and this is the place to find them.
Do not be afraid to ask more questions either. A lot of these guys can help with just about any type of rig or bait idea you can think of.
Good luck!
Paul
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Scott,
You make a very valid point here and you have seen way more fish and fished way more bodies of water than I have fished. You will get no argument from me.
I agree that it really does depend on the body of water and the variety or strain of Cyprinus carpio that is in that body of water.
However, I would not call them sub-species because they are still the same species. Dogs we call breads but Fishery Science uses the term variety or strain for fish varieties within the same species. Sub-species is a term used to define a species that has been isolated from the main gene pool and has developed into a group that has very different phenotypes and may look or behave totally different than the main species but is still genetically or genotypically the same. There is even some argument that these animals or plants are actually a new species or only a variant of the original gene pool. Usually, some kind of dominate mutation has taken place that allowed the sub-species to survive better within a particular environment. My guess is that phenotifically different carp are just a genetic variation and not mutated sub-species. However, I have not done any of the leg work on this one so maybe you are right. I would like to see the various phenotypes and some data on their genotypes. It would be interesting to see if the genotype that produces the phenotype for wild common is interlocked with the genotype for length. Long lean common is probably the most dominate characteristic in the wild. However, I have also seen long lean mirrors, although, they are much rarer in the lakes I have fished. On the other hand, I have never seen a leather variety of the mirror or the nice short fat round shape similar to those being caught in France and other European countries where this strain was manipulated through breading by monks to create carp that would fit on a dinner plate more nicely than a long lean fish. I have never seen a common variety of this strain either. All the photographs, I have seen, are of leathers or mirrors. I have seen photos of this variety posted on the Internet meaning the short leather or mirror type caught here in the US. I am not sure of the internet link because I was just reading and I normally do not save the links. I do know they were fishing a small river in Philadelphia, so I guess I assumed this strain was more prevalent on the Eastern side of the US. However, I stand corrected. Also, I have notice that you and some of the guys from Philadelphia post photos of mirrors on a regular basis. I might see one mirror out of 1000 fish, so I would guess it is a recessive trait in the wild. But, it is odd to me that you guys catch so many of them. I helped with a catfish study on the Big Sioux River in South Dakota. We used hoop nets to catch catfish but we also caught carp in our hoop nets. About 1:8 was a mirror, so they might be more frequent than I think. On the other hand, all the lakes that I have fished, mirrors seem even rarer than in that river. John Keller was saying he is seeing 1:1,000 in SD lakes like Herman and Thompson. This year, I did not catch a single mirror in SD or ND. I did get one on a tiny lake in Illinois and I saw one in ND out of thousands and a few in SD that I did not catch, so I know they are there but they just seem to be the odd balls and very rare. My point is that if you are catching so many mirrors it might be possible you are catching the shorty variety too.
This is off the subject now of the original question, but what ratio of mirrors to commons are you catching?
Do the mirrors tend to be shorter at weights of 20 pounds or more or just the same length as the commons?
All the mirrors I have seen were long. Also, all the fat commons that I have caught or seen have been far and few between. In fact, I have only caught about four fish that were short and stocky, one being the 23 inch fish that weighed 10 pounds. Most everything I have seen has been a nice long lean common. I am just wondering if the phenotype for short stout fish is somehow interlocked with the phenotype for irregular scale pattern or more likely to express itself in carp that are mirrors. I was watching a Korda DVD given to me by David Moore and almost every fish they were catching was a short fat mirror or leather. The few commons they caught were all long lean commons. If you are catching 28-inch long 15-pound carp, my guess is they are of this mirror strain. Then again, maybe they were all commons. Just curious Scott, are your short heavy fish commons or mirrors?
Also, I like to say congratulations to you Scott Osmond! Too everyone who does not know, Scott has once again destroyed everyone on the ACS , year long, carp league. He has almost 3,000 more pounds of fish this year than anyone else and is well on his way to double his last years winning totals. Scott you have my vote this year once again for ACS angler of the year! I hope you get! You deserve it for not only all the fish you catch but also for all the work you do at the carp school and promoting our sport. Thanks.
But, I am warning you, next year, if I find a better lake to fish in California or I move back to South Dakota, I am going to be on your tail all year long. I probably caught 1,000 carp this year, but almost all of them were less than 10 pounds. I made three trips out to South Dakota for two CAG events on Lake Herman and one stop at Lake Thompson and I landed 1400 pounds of qualifying fish during those short sessions out of my 1700 for the season. I had 800 pounds, fishing only in the day, during the four day session on Lake Thompson. It is amazing the difference in carp general size from one river or lake to another. I think John and I had about a 14 pound average during both CAG events in SD and I average almost 15 pounds per a fish on Lake Thompson. Compare that to a 7 pound average on the Red River of the North in ND or 4 pound average on the local lakes in ND. The body of water sure makes all the difference in the world when comes to average size.
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JUst a guess but the rig tubing should pin it to the bottom making it more invisible since its pinned down where as yoru braids and other lines often have a tendancy to float some so when a fish comes near the boat he may be tapped by the line because its possible its not laying on the bottom. Just a thought.
accordbw,
You make a very valid point. I was thinking the same thing about the tubing being more camouflage. I also think the carp like the feel of it on their bodies because I have had fish in fishery ponds rub their bodies on my waders. But, I still wonder if the carp could not see 8 to 12-pound test monofilament and they could see 20-pound test, back then. I have used the braid without the tubing and still caught fish, but I think the braid looks like and feels like weed to the carp. So, I guess I am answering my own question here that line diameter is a factor but does anyone have an idea of what diameter of line is best or most invisible but still strong enough to hold fish when you need too. What I am saying is that I probably will never use anything less than 12-pound test monofilament because I feel anything weaker is just too risky. I am just glad I have the braid now. But again, maybe I am reading into this too much. Maybe it is even possible to use 50-pound test monofilament if the business end is pinned down right.
What do you think?
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I have a question about line diameter. Does it matter?
Back before I learned all the Euro or British stuff, I fished with sweet corn on a straight hook. I was fishing a lake with lots of snags and the fish seemed to always head straight for the nearest snag once they were hooked. I found I could muscle any size fish in with 20-pound test line, but got very few bites. I was using 8-pound test, at first, but lost way too many fish to the snags or because I broke the line trying to turn the fish. Letting them run was not possible and 8-pound test seemed to snap way top easily. Back then, I did not know about superlines, so they were not part of the equation. Finally, I settled on 12-pound test.
Today, I use 30-pound test superline in 6-pound test diameter. I do this because I like to see every bite and also have instant hooking power. I also like how the super braids can be scuffed and still hold the fish. Monofilament will snap if there is a nick in the line. However, I also use this line because I want the strength and the low diameter, but is it really necessary?
I use heavy thick rig tubing close to the hook link these days. I like the bolt style safety rig. I get lots of bites on this rig, but why? The rig tubing is way thicker than 20-pound test line. Why does it work? Is line diameter really important? Does anyone have any thoughts on this puzzle of mine?
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The bigger of the Carp I caught ran 26-28 inches with around 17 inches girth, and weighed 8-10 pounds. The one in my Avatar pic. is 28" long, 17 " girth, and 10 lbs. How long are the 15-20 pound carp you guy catch ? Does girth take over after 30 inches or so ? I see pics of "20 lbs. carp" that don't look over 30"and not super fat. Just trying to get some length/ weight averages. Thanks
Kyron4,
The typical wild common variety of carp that is 28 inches long usually will weigh about 8 pounds. 10 pounds is probably the upper limit for this length, so you are definitely on target with your weights.
However, carp start adding girth once they reach 32 inches. You could catch a wild common that is 12 pounds and 32 inches long and then land another one that is almost 20 pounds but the same length. 32 inches is the magic length that results in less length growth and more girth growth. A 33-inch fish is almost always 20 pounds or very close. Every body of water is different, however, and there are lots of different varieties of the species Cyprinus carpio.
I have caught carp as small as 23 inches that weighed 10 pounds but this is rare in the USA unless you are out East. There are a few varieties of carp, that were manipulated by French monks to grow more round to fit on a dinner plate, that are living in US waters. Most are in lakes or rivers in the Eastern part of the US. These fish could be 30 inches and 50 pounds. Most are mirrors, a rare variety where the scales grow irregular.
I doubt it is possible to make a chart that would be accurate enough to cover all varieties of carp. You might be able to construct one for your lake on your own. But if you are looking for a good marker for as 20-pound fish, then 33 inches is a good bet.
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Central IL also here. I believe they are spawning in my usual venue (Leisure Lakes). The bite seems to have just about completely died out other than a few short periods throughout the day. Throughout April and early May, I was getting action just about as soon as my bait hit the water, all day long. Not so now...
I was out today and saw a lot of "tailing" fish, which might be a sign of the spawn from what I'm told.
Ben
Ben,
I have fished Leisure Lakes myself.
You must live near Springfield, IL or Auburn, IL??
My hometown is Virden and I have friends and family scattered all over in that area.
You should give Springfield Lake a try...one of my friends, who just join CAG this year, has been seeing some nice fish in that lake. He has yet to catch however and I failed on my first try too. Right now they are hard to catch, because they are also spawning. But, they seem to be about done, so it might be worth a try. Lake Sangchris is full of carp but nothing much over 15 pounds. The lake is too full and the fish look stunted, but it could be a nice place to go and catch lots of fish for free.
I am currently in ND, but I would like to know if you catch any fish out of Springfield Lake. I have only tried once and it was this last weekend. But, the spawn was on!!! So, I caught nothing!!! But, I did see some upper teens and there could be much larger fish, so it might be worth a session.
Paul
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i'm in central IN and it seems as if the spawn is on right now
what lake in Illinois are you fishing at?
A tiny lake in Virden, IL called the Burlington Reservoir or AKA "The Tank"
I am now back home in Grand Forks, ND and will be checking out the RED River to see what the carp up here are doing.
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Not sure where to post this question!!!
But, could you guys give me some feedback!
I fished a small lake in Central IL for a multi-species tournament this weekend. The larger carp were hard to catch because they were spawning. The tournament was held on May 19th! It seems the fish just started spawning the day before. I seem to always see the carp spawning in this lake from the 2nd week of May until the end of the month. I was wondering who else is seeing spawning fish or have already seen spawning fish? I would like to have some idea about when the carp spawn in different parts of the US or for that matter different parts of the world. So, I would love it if you guys would chime in with your eye witness accounts!
swedish angler in north dakota
in Beginning Carping
Posted
Hi there,
I lived in Grand Forks, ND, for a few years. I would recommend that you first contact the ND DNR to make sure chumming is allowed in all bodies of water. Rules change, and I have been away for a few years now. As far as where to fish for the big ones is concerned, I am not sure myself. I never caught anything over 16 pounds, but I did miss a few twenty pounders on the Red River. As a child, years ago, I missed something over 60 pounds, back when there was a different type of dam there than what they have now. The Red River has a long park area open to everyone behind the flood levee wall. All the land next to the bike route is public property and is open to all anglers. Also, near the bridge that crosses the Red River into East Grand Forks, Minnesota, you will find a public parking lot. There are places along the bike route where I have caught carp. Look for culverts coming into the river. I have had my best luck around fallen trees and these culverts. I missed a few fish over twenty pounds for sure, but my personal best in ND is only 16 pounds. The Red River is funny. You can fish all day and catch nothing one outing, and then on another, you haul from the same spot. It pays to walk up and down the river looking for signs of fish before putting any bait in. Unfortunately, I spent more time fishing for catfish while I was there than carp, so I have limited information for you. The Red River of the North is the best place on the planet to catch trophy size channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus). Also, you will find yourself alone as a carp angler. Most everyone either fishes for walleye or catfish.
There is a great place to catch numbers of small carp called Lake Ardock. However, I have forgotten what towns are near the lake. It is a bird reserve, and is not always open to the public. It is about an hour from Grand Forks. Get a fishing regulations book from Wal-Mart and look the lake up to make sure it is still open to fisherman. Also, be sure to ask the DNR about the lake. The DNR did not help me much, but they might give you more information about other places that are the home to larger carp. Lake Ardock is full of fish up to 12 pounds. I have caught them on shrimp, worm, sweet corn, boilies, and plastic corn. Boilies will fish slow, but produce larger fish. Shrimp and worm seems to be the best bet for numbers. On the Red River, stick to boilies, maize, and artificial baits. Good luck and good fishing!
P.S. Josef lives nearby in Roger, Minnesota, and John Kelley is just five hours South of Grand Forks in South Dakota. I suggest taking a trip to visit John. South Dakota and Minnesota both have lots of lakes with monster carp. Lake Thompson is one worth the trip. I am sure Josef can also put you on some fish.
Paul Scott