[2010 South Idaho Fly Fishing for Carp Tourney]

Thanks for adding those to the "carp fly pattern" sticky.

[2010 South Idaho Fly Fishing for Carp Tourney]

I clicked on this thread with the full belief that I was going to read a story about a carp tourney where you get a spot along the bank of a lake, chum and then try to fish that location (like most of the Euro style tournaments). This actually put a smile on my face. I like that the tournament was for a trophy and bragging rights instead of a lot of money with the rules that I read. While I have thought of fishing carp tournaments as a fly fisher the drawing of a location and being pegged to that one location isn't the way that I fish. Since I don't chum and bring the fish to me I have to hunt them. If something like this was offered in my area, I would be there.

Congrats on some nice fish caught and some fantastic memories. Maybe I am wrong, but I think John has that carp carrot in the sticky at the top of the section on Carp flies. If you don't John, it would be a good one to add to that thread.

Rick

[Grass carp]

Hey now Rick! I've only managed to land two of them, but have hooked several. Thrown hooks and broken lines (I usually use 2X leader, 10lb tippet) usually end the excitement all too soon. The two I landed, and a third that managed to get by the net several times before breaking the line on a rock...were all hooked on boa yarn leech patterns. One was a greenish color, a second was a sort of tan-colored, and a third was a yellow color. I've also had takes on patterns that look like bread (like use furry foam and marabou), for example. I forget now what else they may have hit on.

They've been observed falling all over each other trying to eat the grass clippings that have gotten blown into one pond. I tried to make a fly using green sheet foam (to float it), and peacock herl for grass blades, but so far no takes on that. Will continue trying it, though, cuz it looks pretty close to grass. I'll have to try the suggest of long thin foam tied to the hook.

How about a photo of one of those boa leach patterns? I have read about your success with those on crappie too on that OTTHER forum that we both visit.

Rick

[1st Mirror ...]

What a fatty! Cool looking fish. The photo is a nice trophy.

Rick

[Is this a common carp?]

Clay,

I hate to keep bugging you. Does a strong lateral line usually indicate a male among koi. How do you tell male from female. In wild carp autopsy was the only way I could REALLY tell although I pretty much trusted a strong lateral line. Some times I would swear I was dealing with females or vis versa only to discover I was wrong. Does it matter in "show koi" (other than size). Do koi males get the strong sandpaper bumps on the gill covers like their wild cousins?

Possum,

You mean that would be the first $20 you ever pissed away? Give it a go, especially if you see a couple (or 4) you really like. Also, sometimes mixed in the "goldfish" at the bait shops they get koi rather than goldfish. If you have a friendly bait shop or frequent the a bait shop often - ask them. They are about a $.25 each. Flathead catfishermen prize them around here. Ohh, if you don't know don't buy goldfish. They are a pain in the butt. Remember carp have whiskers.

Phone

I was posting to a thread by John Montana and I asked a question about spawning and was thinking about male vs female fish when I thought of your question here and remembered that I didn't answer.

The question that I am referring to is about koi sex or how to tell the difference. I have a video of one of the koi judges at a AKCA show in Chicago sexing one of my fish. It's too large to send in an email and I don't know how to post it anywhere. My friend Steve Childers who is a judge took one of my fish and stroked it along the abdomen until milt appeared. I thought about making all kinds comments about that proceedure but I thought that a straight forward explaination would be best and you can let you own mind run wild. Yes, males get more pronounced bumps on their gill plates during mating season, but the only way to know for sure is to see milt or eggs. The second best way is to watch who is chasing who during the breeding season. Males pursue and females run until they don't. The males are ready before the females so they pursue for a while before the females are receptive.

I've never heard anything about telling by lateral line appearance. Sorry so late for the answer, must be getting old.

Rick

[Mirror, mirror]

Cool John. Images can be misleading sometimes, but this one looks very red along the side. Do you think that was from spawning activity?

Rick

[Carping on the mid-Columbia]

Another reference to the koi keeping hobby that I am involved with but we call it flashing and it is a sign of parasites. Trying not to get too far off topic but there are all kinds of no see ums that plague fish.

If you are interested in finding out more about carp parasites here is a link: http://koishack.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69

Remedies often include the use of a microscope and injectable antibiotics. Think of coyotes and tick and flea infestations, wild carp don't get to go to the doctor and even though they look clean to your naked eye they ARE carrying many parasites.

Rick

[Grass carp]

I'll have to give Fish Dave a heads up on this thread. He has had some very nice success with them. Have never seen one is Wis.

[First carp of the year]

Super cool, congrats.

[Are We Shunned?]

I get it on the water and at the local TU meetings. I keep bringing it up just to piss them off. Then when I convert one of the trout guys we try to talk loudly at the next meeting about how much fun we had catching fish and how they ripped drag off, then on purpose I like to compare that to the 8" brook trout that so many of them love and how I can just crank them in like they are on a wench and lift them out of the water with my 3 wt and how that would be impossible to do with an 8 wt and most carp. I like to see them listening but pretending not to. Some go on and say nasty things but that just DRIVES ME. I tend to enjoy some conflict, but try to stay diplomatic and still get my point across.

On that water I have seen guys get red in the face and come over and challenge me and try to tell me thats it's illegal to release the carp that I just released. At one point in Wisconsin it use to be illegal to release carp back into the water but that was years ago. I then go on to tell them that releasing them is indeed legal but it is illegal to throw them on the bank and let them rot and stink so that everyone has to smell that nasty business. I also tell them that if they want one to eat, I would be glad to help, if they want one for their tomato plants that is cool to. Use them or let them go. They are plentiful but it is illegal to waste them. My final line usually goes something like: Even if I kept the 100+ fish that I put in the net per year out of this water, it wouldn't do anything to their numbers except create an ecological hole for more reproduction. Keeping a hundred or even 200 fish a year will not change the population levels. I am an addict, the drug is the tug.

Will have to include the "big carp" line in my standard presentation. I fish a lot on a bike path in the city. I get a lot of contact with the general public. I often recruit people to take pictures for me or even net a fish. The kids love to net a fish and it gives me the opportunity to introduce the kid and the family to fly fishing. A couple of times, especially with the cute Moms, I even hand the kid the fly rod and let them reel one in. I'm an old married guy, but there is nothing like the smile on a young girls face as she watches her kid catch a fish. I'm even happily married but I still like to see kids and pretty Mom's smile.

Rick

[Is this a common carp?]

Clay,

After looking at the first site you recommended I believe the fish I saw was indeed a Kohaku. It was all white with just the red circle on the head. Of course you are right about my beginners mistake. I have no idea what the fishes conformation was (although I was told it was a female). Just all white with a well centered and nearly perfect big red dot for the top of it's head.

I actually think this fish came to the US from Japan and was being sold to another collector in Japan. I didn't know they even did that!

Phone

Ohh, we'll agree to disagree on the "very smart' part. Carp are stupid, trout are just stupid-est-er. Although among stupid fish, carp may be one of the smartest freshwater species.

Phone, a white koi with just red markings is a kohaku. Now if the only red marking on an all white fish is round circle on the head (which is known as tancho) it is a tancho kohaku.

Now if it is a white koi, with black and red markings it's a sanke (remember the big three that I spoke of before called gosanke?) A sanke with a red round circle on its head is also tancho, it is a tancho sanke. So the word tancho can be applied to showa as well. A showa is a black fish, with white and red markings. Now this black fish has a red circle type shape on his head, he is a tancho showa. There are more tanchos but tancho on gosanke (the big three) are the most popular. Here's alink with pictures:

http://www.koi.com/reference/encyclopedia/tancho.php

I use to post on a number of boards just dedicated to koi, so the couple of questions here are no trouble at all. I feel guilty about the twist on Lee's thread and I thank him for not telling me to shut the front door about koi.

Possum, your fish should grow big there. Check out the link that I posted earlier about harvest. Those are mud bottomed ponds. Many ponds in this country are lined with clay and are thought helpful for color development. One of the biggest things about buying koi from mass market outlets like a pet store or Wally World, is that they have parasites. Not that they might have bugs, but what type and how many. There are many issues with bio security with commond bugs like flukes, costia and real big threats like KHV. I have a lab grade microscope and antibiotics for my fish if they become sick. I've baby sat some fish early on in my koi keeping career and done multiple fish antibiotic injections. Remember they are not wild carp but more like pampered poodles compared to the wild cousins who are more like coyotes who are just tough.

I would encourage people to buy from a reputable dealer. You don't have to spend hundreds either. But $15 or $20 for a fish is a cheap deal compared to a sick $4 koi that makes your other fish sick. I quarentine each new purchase for at least 90 days and the big boys that have seperate ponds far enough apart for no cross contamination. My carp fly fishing gear doesn't get next to the pets.

Rick

[Is this a common carp?]

I got a fish sandwich at Captain D's today for $3.99 and one side. I thought that was high! OK , enough of the jokes, as bad as they are. I found this thread most interesting. Many people in the western world are not aware of the hobby of collecting, breeding, and showing koi. To all, thanks for the lesson on koi. Are there any koi shows in the southeast like Nashville, Atlanta, Birmingham?

Nashville, you have great timing:

The 29th Annual AKCA Seminar

Nashville, TN

May 19 - 23, 2010

This is the annual show for the Associated Koi Clubs of American and more info can be found here: http://www.akca.org/joomla/index.php

A list of clubs throughout the US: http://www.akca.org/joomla/index.php

Go to a club meeting or make a show that a local club holds. Don't be surprised to see armed guards at the events, it's standard proceedure.

Have fun, ask questions and enjoy.

Rick

[Is this a common carp?]

Clay,

You don't have to answer as an 'expert' or anything but do you think these (the one you circled and called Tancho) are the MOST expensive. If not the Tancho Kohaku, what would you say is the most desireable koi.

I'm only interested as a matter of curiousity, not a big deal. I am facinated by the lengths to which some owners go to have perfect "show koi".

Phone

(In case you haven't seen it in some of my other posts, the fish in SFO brought $235,000. The buyer worked through an agent by phone and was in Japan. The fish was bought as is - no transportation involved. WoW!).

Those prices are way out of my league. The last fish that I bougt I paid $600 for a 12" koi in TN. I drove to TN picked it up in person and drove it back to Wisconsin. She was a very small female with big potential. I have seen with my own eyes fish that have sold for over $10K. I use to do some koi shows. I have an oxygen tank and a welding type regulator to fill large, specialty plastic bags with O2, double bag them, put them in a cooler and drive them to a show where you have a show tank and you exhibit your fish and they are judged.

You asked about variety and valvue. Pattern or coloration will get you so far, confirmation or body shape is what really draws the dollars. Most people look at a fish and they see the colors first. That is a beginners mistake. Yes, it identifies variety, but judges are looking for far more. The big three that win shows are gosanke this includes three varieties: Kohaku which the tancho is a variety of Kohaku, sanke and showa and the other two of the big three. These days a nice Utsuri can also draw much attention. An utsuri is a two colored fish and the secondary color of an utsuri is black. A white fish with black spots is called a shiro utsuri and they are also in almost as much demand as one of the big three.

The most expensive fish will be in Japan sold from a Japanese breeder to a Japanese collector. While the trade fo high quality fish is opening up for those that have deep pockets letting these national treasures out of the country to a non Japanese person is frowned upon, but dollars talk and the demand is there. Most of this high dollar fish you don't even keep yourself. You pay for the fish, you pay a boarding fee for the breeder to keep the fish in ideal conditions then the breader campaigns your fish for you. Much like many horse owners have a staff to take care of their prized posessions. While being common, you are still talking about the upper end of hobbiests here.

I am rambling a little, but to answer your question directly the highest priced fish will either be one of the gosanke which include: Kohaku, sanke or showa or a Shiro Utsuri. One of those 4 varieties with the genetics and lineage kept in idea conditions that is also a large specimen. Size isn't everything, but big is better given other things being equal.

Here are a few breeders to look at what they have produced.

http://www.sakai-ff.com/index_e.html

You might enjoy a koi harvest in Japan:

I own a Matsunosuke sanke and won my division in a Chicago show with him. Mostly the females win because of size. Have fun watching the videos and feel free to ask any questions that you have. It's really a rewarding hobby. I think that much of the respect that I have for the carp is interacting with them on a daily basis for the last 15 years as a koi keeper. They are just plain smart. Trout are dumb, carp are very smart.

Rick

[Is this a common carp?]

Clay,

In the chart I don't see the fish that sold at top dollar in an SFO auction. It was a white fish with a red "rising sun" centered exactly in the middle of its head. Which spur of the gene tree would such a fish appear?

Phone

Sorry Phone that I didn't answer your question. I put a red circle on the fish where the Tancho Kohaku came from:

[Is this a common carp?]

Yes, Tancho Kohaku. It is said in the hobby of koi keeping that it begins and ends with the kohaku. Just like I have a friend who bought a horse at a local farm auction for about $100 and then there are the horses that sell at auction for well over a million dollars. They are both horses. While I don't compete these days and I am NOT a koi judge, confirmation or the body shape is what makes the huge difference. Some look at a white fish and it's white. In nishikigoi (koi) the goal is to have white like pattent leather white. Deep white with a sheen not just a thin white. Judges can go on and on about the white on fish and the subtlies of the white. The edges between the colors are also a great area of interest. Here is a link that discribes it better than I can about the kohaku: http://www.koi.com/reference/encyclopedia/kohaku.php

Don't make the mistake that you can buy a $4 koi and sell it $500,000. It's just not going to happen. People that slection fish are very skilled and their families have been doing it for generations. Many people would have to make a long series of mistakes for that to happen. Now there is money to be made for those knowing what they are looking for and buying fish but those opportunities are still rare.

I know that I am getting way off topic guys but keeping these guys in a pond takes more effort that digging a hole, putting water in it and then the fish. We think of them as carp and we all know that carp can survive in marginal waters, domenstic koi won't. So the real appeal of buy a $4 fish is to learn how to keep it alive before you spend several hundreds of dollars on a single fish only to kill it in a matter of weeks or a few short months.

This fish is $675: http://www.koi.com/detail-koi.php?koiid=1541 It's a nice fish from a reputible dealer.

This fish is $4200: http://www.koi.com/detail-koi.php?koiid=1494 They are both red and white fish, but there is a huge difference.

OK, off the koi mode and back to thinking of catching their wild cousin the common carp.

Rick

[Is this a common carp?]

When koi were developed by breeding they all started as black from two different varieties of Magoi. Check out the chart here for http://www.japan-nishikigoi.org/keitou.html

Here's another nice link: http://www.japan-nishikigoi.org/genealogy.html# These days for koi keepers or hobbiests, the magoi is not highly sought after since it is considered an unrefined specimen by many. I had one in my pond for a few years and he had a wonderful tempermant and was very friendly. My fish recognize my voice and we make eye contact often. The magoi that I had did have one fatal flaw, he was a jumper. While I found him pond side on more than one occation flopping in the grass, one day I didn't find him until it was too late. I miss him, he was cool.

Rick

[Roughfisher came to the PNW]

Those photos are seriously cool not only the actual MONSTER fish but the places that you are fishing. The one shot, just before the last photo, looks like surf fishing with those white caps breaking. You were fishing carp in that? Wild indeed.

Thanks for taking the crap I was putting on you JP, but catching fish that big I was hoping that you couild get over it.

Rick

[Roughfisher came to the PNW]

Now that's not the most flattering picture of JP that I have seen. But I will take it that he is using his waders as a minimalist approach to fishing without a vest or pack. You have a good friend there in Mr. P for putting your best pose first. HA. If we can't pick on each other in fun we probably wouldn't chase carp for fun either. I find most carp fisherman have to have a good sense of humor to take all of the razzing that I take from my fellow TU members.

Post some more pictures here Mr. P and glad that you two had a chance to share a swim together and exchange some stories in person. Sounds like a grand time.

Rick

[Is this a common carp?]

Yamabuki Ogon blood is in that mutt somewhere back in history. To see the purebred check out the following link:

http://www.koi.com/detail-koi.php?koiid=1512

Been a koi keeper since 1995. Love carp, I catch them on the fly rod and keep them as pets, but not the same fish. I like to describe the two as the same as a coyote and your neighbor's poodle. Same but very different indeed.

[Weighing and releasing carp]

I was taken to task one time on another site for displaying a picture of a carp lying in the dirt. I was told to use a mat but like others, I'm mobile and what can fit in my fanny pack is what I can take with me. But I don't toss carp around and set then down as gently as can be but sometimes they just like to roll around in the dirt.........dry mudding? Dusting?

I use to carry a scale, hook type and I filed the hook smooth and round but I don't carry it anymore because most of the areas I fish have the same sizes, small 3-5lb, medium 6-10lb and large 11-15lb so it makes it easy.

If I get back on the local lake, I'll have to carry it because there's 30+ lb'ers in there.

I'm with you Lee in that I tend to catch 5 to 6 pounders many times with and 8 to 9 pounder thrown in to make it more interesting. Every once in a blue moon something ends up on the end of the line that puts a bigger smile on your face and you will be happy to have a scale with you. This photo isn't the ideal way to weigh a fish, but it is still much, much better than trying to hang this fish from the mouth or from a gill plate like we use to do 25 to 30 years ago.

[Weighing and releasing carp]

I can't disagree with the above tournament guys on quality scales. If you want to spend over $200 on a way to weight fish the RH are thee choice. Bluntly for me I just wanted something for my log and I wanted something that was reasonably accurate without breaking the bank and that I could carry easily. This scale won't bring out all of the oohs and aahs that a RH will illicit, for less than $40 it will weight +/- 3 oz and you throw it in you vest or fly fishing pack, http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/s...__SearchResults Make sure to take along your large landing net and you have a way of bragging to your buddies with a whole lot more validity than someone who says I caught a couple of 20 pounders. When you ask them how they weighted those fish, they say: "They must have been 20lbs, they looked big to me"

So I live with less accuracy, but more reality than someone that doesn't weight their fish. Now I don't weight all my fish, just the bigger ones. The little guys all look like they are 15 pounds to me (just kidding).

Wendy B who use to post on here more often posted a picture of a nice big fish next to his fly fishing rod and reel. He then asked people to guess what it weighted. Many were way off. Having been playing with my scale often and estimating the length of the fish by knowing the diameter of the reel in his picture I came within a few ounces. What looks like 8 pounds to one guys looks like 16 to the next guy that isn't use to weighting a lot of fish.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Have fun and keep records for your own enjoyment.

Rick

[A Tale of Two Creeks]

Glad that you are finding some time to get out Lee. Nicely done. Some fat bellies there.

[Carp were active this AM.]

I'm with John on this one. I use a Salmon type net that has a short handle that can still be carried on my back with a magnetic net release and then carry a small digital scale in my pack.

Rick

[More "lake runs"]

Looks like you were in a big body of water. I have to get out to one of fairly local lakes and soon and see what is brewing.

Neat angles for the pictures.

Rick

[Carp were active this AM.]

Nicely done and like you I have noticed that the fish are much more active now in my part of the world. Saw cloopers for the first time this year last Thursday. Literally saw hundreds of fish but they were extremely warry and difficult to catch on the fly. Very few tailers that day, most of the fish were up on the top. Glad that you were able to get into some fish.

Currious about your use of the Boga. Do you find that it damages the fish with their soft mouth? Most use a net or a sling to weight their fish, but have often thought about how easy it would be to use a Boga but always thought it would damage larger fish.

Rick